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From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:15:33 GMT
Hi Woonsan,

Yes, for the user@ list. At least up to a point where inline translation is
working well and common. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Woonsan Ko <woonsan@apache.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically:
> In
> > practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
> > specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
> >
> > Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk
> är
> > inte längre ett hinder.
> >
> > Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> > operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages
> they
> > don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> > awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> > example.
> >
> > So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past
> as
> > people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
> > Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days --
> the
> > translate function is extremely cool.
> >
> > You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> > technology to remove the barrier.
> >
> > Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> > project page that discusses communication in different languages
> > encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> > comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no
> interaction.
> >
> > I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed
> and
> > that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> > as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
> I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
> understanding from the discussions here and there.
> But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
> English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
> to do so.
>
> Just my two cents,
>
> Woonsan
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecharny@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
> >> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
> >>
> >>
> >> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
> >> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
> >> get my implicit point ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
> >> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
> >> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
> >> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
> >> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
> >> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
> >> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
> >>
> >>
> >> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
> >> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
> >> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
> >> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> >> > Adding members@
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> >> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
in
> >> >> English?
> >> >>
> >> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> >> English
> >> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when
> >> it
> >> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> >> lower
> >> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> >> English
> >> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >> >>
> >> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> >> exclude
> >> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> >> native
> >> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> >> according
> >> >> to Wikipedia.
> >> >>
> >> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> >> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi Gunnar,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> not
> >> >>> real,
> >> >>> but just
> >> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> from
> >> >>> China,
> >> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
and
> >> LABEL
> >> >>> for such
> >> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> >> "issue" to
> >> >>> describe like
> >> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
or
> >> >>> others...
> >> >>> that's not right way.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> >>> contributing to
> >> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> >>> involved
> >> >>> in many
> >> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
days
> >> >>> mailing
> >> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >> >>>
> >> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
> you
> >> >>> could check
> >> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> list.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out
a
> way to
> >> >>> access
> >> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> >> speakers,
> >> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> >> Way.
> >> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> >>> community, and try
> >> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> >> patience
> >> >>> for
> >> >>> those new comers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> >> journey,
> >> >>> our experience
> >> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> >>> challenges...through
> >> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> >> many
> >> >>> potential projects
> >> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> >>> Trafodion
> >> >>> community"
> >> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> Trafodion
> >> >>> PMC
> >> >>> know
> >> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> articles,
> >> >>> session recordings and
> >> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> >>> discussion
> >> >>> if necessary:-)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> >> from
> >> >>>> China.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
that
> >> >>> active
> >> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
in
> >> >>>> Chinese.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
hard
> not
> >> to
> >> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> questions
> >> etc
> >> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> forward,
> >> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
members
> in
> >> >>> China
> >> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication
issues
> >> like
> >> >>>> this.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Gunnar
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
of
> >> >>> years
> >> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> source
> >> >>> beyond
> >> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> trip
> >> to
> >> >>>> China.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
> to.
> >> We
> >> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> involved
> >> >>> with
> >> >>>> this proposal.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
project
> and
> >> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
We
> will
> >> >>> need
> >> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
China
> born
> >> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
we
> need
> >> >>> to
> >> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> foundation
> >> >>> and as
> >> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
met
> >> some
> >> >>> of
> >> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
the
> >> >>> project
> >> >>>> can succeed.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ---
> >> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hi John,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> >> constructive
> >> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> project
> >> >>> using
> >> >>>> your suggestions.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by
Von
> >> Gosling,
> >> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
the
> Github
> >> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
the
> >> history
> >> >>>> was
> >> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> git-fu
> >> >>> went
> >> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
Von
> also
> >> >>> gives
> >> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> >> Indeed,
> >> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> with
> >> >>> git),
> >> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF
to
> improve
> >> >>> and
> >> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
since
> >> >>> Bruce is
> >> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the
ASF
> exist
> >> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> >> mentors,
> >> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> interest
> >> in
> >> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
in
> >> >>> continuing
> >> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
years
> >> >>> experience
> >> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> over
> >> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> community of
> >> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
The ASF
> is
> >> an
> >> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
new
> >> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
and
> stay
> >> for
> >> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
project
> >> and
> >> >>>> people to the ASF.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> >>> suggestions
> >> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> proposal.
> >> >>> Even
> >> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
be
> great
> >> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
moving
> >> >>> forward.
> >> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
you
> >> >>> mentioned
> >> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> RocketMQ
> >> >>> code
> >> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
John
> with
> >> >>> his
> >> >>>> thoughts:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
two
> >> questions
> >> >>>> specifically:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> >>> to
> >> >>>> build cross platform clients?
> >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
> backend
> >> >>>> persistence stores?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Bruce
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> >> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
concerned
> >> >>> about:
> >> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through
huge blobs of
> >> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> >> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend
a lot of time
> >> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
prevails.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
statement:
> >> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up
as well.  I
> >> >>>> suspect
> >> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
on
> the
> >> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
apache
> >> >>> products"
> >> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> competes
> >> >>> with
> >> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
the
> chair of
> >> >>> one
> >> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> with
> >> >>> the
> >> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
today
> in
> >> >>>> their
> >> >>>>> code base.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> >>> communities
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
> >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
> >> backend
> >> >>>>> persistence stores?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> etc..
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>> Roman.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister
<
> >> >>> brianm@skife.org>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> +1 !
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> Cool.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> +1
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder
<
> >> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new
Incubator podling named
> >> >>>>> Apache
> >> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable,
scalable,
> distributed,
> >> >>>> easy
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> use
> >> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially
for processing large
> >> >>>> amounts
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the
wiki at the following
> >> >>> URL:
> >> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >> >>> 2F%
> >> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> >> dcff%
> >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal
below.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>>> ---------
> >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> >>> org
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> ---------
> >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> perl -e 'print
> >> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> "YC;VT*"
> >> >>> );'
> >> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> >> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> >>> icrosoft.com%
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> >> microsoft.com
> >> >>> %
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> >>> 6e60c908d40597
> >> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Emmanuel Lecharny
> >>
> >> Symas.com
> >> directory.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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