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From Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
Date Mon, 26 Sep 2016 18:10:51 GMT
Yup, done -- what will you be working on in Apache NetBeans? Based on the
books and documentation you've written, I imagine something along those
lines, while you're also a Java EE expert, so I could see you contributing
in different ways there too, as well as being a JCP expert group member. A
big win for the project, thank you.

Gj

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:08 PM, Michael Müller <
michael.mueller@mueller-bruehl.de> wrote:

> Hi GJ,
>
>
> due to technical problems I missed one day of the discussion. I'm going to
> catch up.
>
> If possible, please add to to the initial commiters.
>
>
> Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,
>
> Michael Müller
> Brühl, Germany
> blog.mueller-bruehl.de <http://blog.mueller-bruehl.de/>
> it-rezension.de <http://it-rezension.de/>
> @muellermi
>
>
> Read my books
> "Web Development with Java and JSF": https://leanpub.com/jsf
> "Java Lambdas und (parallel) Streams" Deutsche Ausgabe:
> https://leanpub.com/lambdas-de
> "Java Lambdas and (parallel) Streams" English edition:
> https://leanpub.com/lambdas
>
> On 09/23/2016 03:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>
>> OK. Before the vote, will work on making the initial contributors list as
>> complete as possible.
>>
>> What is the process for doing that? Do I simply make changes directly in
>> the proposal? Do I make the changes public here before adding them to the
>> proposal? Do I work directly with the mentors via e-mails to discuss and
>> then after than make the changes?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Geertjan
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:02 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bertrand,
>>>
>>> Responses in line.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:54 PM Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Geertjan,
>>>>
>>>> I won't have time to look at your whole message now, just a few
>>>> clarifications as far as committers/PMC is concerned.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
>>>> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...Anyone on the list
>>>>> will, once the proposal has been voted on and accepted, automatically
>>>>>
>>>> be
>>>
>>>> contributors to the Apache NetBeans project...
>>>>>
>>>> They will be commiters to be precise.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, the way I interpretted Geertjan is that Netbeans contributor ==
>>> ASF
>>> committer.  They don't have the role of PMC/PPMC presently, so we'll see
>>> how that evolves.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone not on the list will
>>>>> need to be voted in by the initial contributors, which is a process
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> could be fast, but is still a process and can be avoided by inclusion
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>
>>>> the initial contributors list...
>>>>>
>>>> It's a simple process, the incubating project could very well have one
>>>>
>>> vote
>>>
>>>> for N people if that makes sense and they are all wanted.
>>>>
>>>> Its simple but hard.  And no, I don't think we want bulk votes.  What if
>>> someone is +1 add Mark S and -1 add Bertrand D?  At least when its come
>>> up
>>> to the IPMC previously, we've recommended against it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Everyone on the initial contributors list is
>>>>> automatically part of the PMC.
>>>>>
>>>> There's no PMC for an incubating project, just a PPMC as per
>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>>
>>>> That group has no formal power, only the Incubator PMC can vote on the
>>>> podling's releases or make other decisions which are binding at the
>>>> foundation level.
>>>>
>>>> In practice, you are correct that the PPMC is a PMC in training, but
>>>>
>>> really
>>>
>>>> in a podling being a PPMC member doesn't make a difference IMO.
>>>>
>>>> It does.  PPMC has one important job - vote on adding more people.  We
>>> hope
>>> that they will learn to look at their releases very carefully while under
>>> incubation.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Anyone on the list when the project leaves
>>>>> incubation gets write access to the project for the rest of their
>>>>>
>>>> life...
>>>
>>>> That's correct, but there can be a difference between the committers and
>>>> PMC members once the project graduates. As a mentor, when graduating I
>>>> would not accept a PMC member who has not contributed during incubation
>>>>
>>> for
>>>
>>>> example, whereas a committer that hasn't really been active during
>>>> incubation is harmless.
>>>>
>>>> Committers don't have formal power once the project graduates, and if
>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>> don't behave their commits rights can easily be suspended, temporarily
>>>> or
>>>> permanently. That very rarely happens, just mentioning it to clarify the
>>>> risks.
>>>>
>>>> That's... odd to say the least.  I'm not aware of any specific cases,
>>> doesn't mean it hasn't' happened, but I can't think of any cases where it
>>> has (other than one special case recently of someone being asked out of
>>> the
>>> organization...)
>>>
>>>
>>> In summary, what you don't want in an Apache project is poisonous PMC
>>>> members, so in my view to be on the PMC once graduating people will have
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> demonstrate during incubation that they are making positive
>>>> contributions
>>>> to it - just being on the initial list of committers doesn't count
>>>>
>>> towards
>>>
>>>> that, in my book.
>>>>
>>>> ...If the above is accurate, we do need to work on the initial
>>>>>
>>>> contributors
>>>>
>>>>> list prior to voting on the proposal, quite aside from the infra
>>>>>
>>>> assessment...
>>>>
>>>> I still don't think that's required and should be avoided if it delays
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> vote for NetBeans acceptance, as the list of committers can be modified
>>>> during incubation with just a bit of additional work.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think this will add a lot of work.  I even gave him the idea of
>>> just generating a script of past committers based on commit history.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you still want do expand the list during incubation, best is to come
>>>>
>>> up
>>>
>>>> with a list of additional names that the existing NetBeans community
>>>>
>>> feels
>>>
>>>> deserve to be on that list (maybe based on votes on the existing
>>>> NetBeans
>>>> community's channels), and have the NetBeans mentors accept that new
>>>>
>>> list.
>>> Agreed 100%.  If someone hasn't added anything in a while, has no
>>> interest
>>> in developing more, and the community doesn't see much benefit, they
>>> shouldn't be on the list.  However, if that person does start
>>> contributing,
>>> please pay close attention to see if they're interested in coming back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>>
>>>>
>

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