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From Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de.INVALID>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
Date Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:17:10 GMT
hg doesn't have the committer/author separation like GIT has, right? :(

In the ASF it's good practice to give credits to the patch contributor in the commit, e.g.

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5bafa2ba5977ab88c8dfe376c9756825d948bce9afd3b69aa693ab96@%3Ccommits.openwebbeans.apache.org%3E

But of course that makes doing the research much more complicated. 


Which brings us to another question:
If the commits just referenced a bugzilla ticket, do we also like to migrate the bugzilla
content over?
Or at least keep it browsable somewhere?



LieGrue,
strub


PS: I hope it was clear in my previous post that if some of the NetBeans contributors show
up that I assume that they will get picked up via a VOTE pretty quickly.



> On Saturday, 24 September 2016, 11:19, Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I assume there is a reason the list is called initial. It doesn't have to
> be perfect.
> 
> We should differentiate between a contributor and a committer.
> 
> A lot more people contributed patches via bugzilla than actually committed
> them in the Mercurial repository themselves.
> 
> The reason being it was not a very common thing to get committer access.
> 
> Furthermore, while I am a contributor and do have commit access and the
> Oracle CLA on file most of my contributions don't show up under my name.
> They show up under the name of the Sun / Oracle employee that got assigned
> to the Bugzilla issue where I posted my patch.
> 
> Considering how large NetBeans is I assume we will not have a short
> incubation so there will be plenty of time to add committers.
> 
> Pe sâmbătă, 24 septembrie 2016, Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de.invalid> 
> a
> scris:
> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Consider you did contribute 300 important patches to NetBeans over the
>>  years. Wouldn't it hurt your feelings that you are not enlisted on the
>>  initial committers list?
>> 
>> 
>>  But otoh the initial list of committers is not important for the ASF _if_
>>  the PPMC makes a good job.
>>  Because if such a person comes knocking then some of the 'old' 
> NetBeans
>>  lords&ladies will hopefully recognise the person and any other PPMC 
> member
>>  will at least check the commit history for his/hers contributions.
>> 
>>  And if someone shows up who already contributed lots of good things in the
>>  past and would like to become active again, then it's just a matter of 
> 72h
>>  (VOTE time) to get him on board.
>> 
>>  BUT: we must clearly communicate that we start with a limited committer
>>  list simply because WE fail to compose a correct one from the very start.
>>  But people should know that we will fix this list over time.
>> 
>> 
>>  LieGrue,
>>  strub
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  > On Saturday, 24 September 2016, 7:46, Emilian Bold <
>>  emilian.bold@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>  > > So on one hand the initial commiters list is not something so
>>  important and
>>  > we should realy just be careful about the PPMC then vote more 
> commiters
>>  > during incubation.
>>  >
>>  > On the other hand the initial commiters list is super important.
>>  >
>>  > Is there some actual incubation documentation clearing this up?
>>  >
>>  > I think it's a big administrative task to compile a perfect list. 
> It's
>>  > not
>>  > only about who has commit rights on the current repository, there are
>>  also
>>  > many that contribute good patches via Bugzilla, etc.
>>  >
>>  > Also, each individual would have to be contacted and agree to be on 
> the
>>  > list which also implicitly means they will sign the Apache CLA.
>>  >
>>  > I do not believe the initial commiters list could fracture the 
> community
>>  as
>>  > long as we provide a clear path to become a commiter.
>>  >
>>  > I maintained a NetBeans fork for a customer but it was a lot of work 
> to
>>  > backport fixes, etc. Nobody is going to go through all that trouble 
> just
>>  > out of spite because they were not on the initial commiter's list.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > --emi
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Roman Shaposhnik 
> <roman@shaposhnik.org
>>  <javascript:;>>
>>  > wrote:
>>  >
>>  >>  On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>  >>  <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>  >>  > Hi Wade,
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Wade Chandler
>>  >>  > <consult@wadechandler.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>  >>  >> ..I can say as a long time contributor who is not on the 
> initial
>>  > list, I
>>  >>  >> understand, think it is fine, and agree that being added 
> once we
>>  > get
>>  >>  into
>>  >>  >> the actual incubation phase makes sense...
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Thanks!
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > As someone who has mentored several projects here in the 
> last ten
>>  >>  > years or so I think although people sometimes see a lot of 
> value in
>>  >>  > being on the initial committers list they should not, IMO.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > What very often happens during incubation is some people who 
> were on
>>  >>  > this list almost never contribute to the project, and other 
> expected
>>  >>  > or unexpected people show up, do great things and get 
> elected as a
>>  >>  > result.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Also, as mentor I will recommend reviewing the list of 
> committers and
>>  >>  > PMC members shortly before graduation, to give the 
> opportunity to
>>  >>  > people who didn't actually become active to gracefully 
> retire - if
>>  > the
>>  >>  > project governance works it's easy to come back later by 
> becoming
>>  >>  > active, and the project benefits from having a roster that 
> reflects
>>  >>  > the reality of active contributors.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > So in summary people shouldn't put too much value on the 
> initial
>>  > list
>>  >>  > of committers, it's just that - an initial list, a kind 
> of draft
>>  > that
>>  >>  > will evolve during incubation, and probably evolve a lot for 
> a large
>>  >>  > project such as NetBeans.
>>  >>
>>  >>  Well, but they do. In fact, when I was a VP of Incubator a few 
> years
>>  >>  ago I had to deal with a formal escalation brought to the ASF 
> level
>>  >>  by somebody who felt unduly left out of that initial list of
>>  committers.
>>  >>  If the code one wrote is going into ASF -- and especially if it 
> is a
>>  >>  non-trivial amount of code, one can certainly expect some
>>  considerations.
>>  >>
>>  >>  This is the same principle as ASF postulates when we say that we
>>  >>  don't fork the communities. We truly don't. That's 
> why for a
>>  > project
>>  >>  as large as NetBeans I think it is important for us to inquire 
> what
>>  >>  kind of due diligence was done to get the list of initial 
> committers
>>  >>  just right. Otherwise it is going to be OpenOffice vs. 
> LibreOffice
>>  >>  type of situation all over again (not that commiters was the key
>>  >>  issue there -- but you catch my drift).
>>  >>
>>  >>  >> ...I am able to contribute as much as I can at this 
> stage
>>  > anyways...
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Indeed, and that stays true once incubation starts. Even 
> though an
>>  >>  > Apache PMC ultimately makes all the project decisions, they 
> are
>>  >>  > expected to listen to their community. The 
> "community"
>>  > section at
>>  >>  > https://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-
>>  >>  maturity-model.html
>>  >>  > expresses that.
>>  >>
>>  >>  Right. And all I want to get out folks on this thread at this 
> point is
>>  two
>>  >>  things:
>>  >>   #1 admission that past contributions will be valued a LOT when 
> it
>>  >>        comes to somebody requesting to be added as a committer to 
> the
>>  >>        project during incubation
>>  >>
>>  >>   #2 a bit of explanation of what was the process to arrive at 
> initial
>>  list
>>  >>  of
>>  >>        committers
>>  >>
>>  >>  >> ...getting into building a thorough list before hand 
> will
>>  >>  >> certainly take time away from higher priority items at 
> this
>>  > stage...
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Yes, that's why the NetBeans mentors pushed to avoid 
> adding people
>>  > to
>>  >>  > the list of initial committers before the incubation vote 
> starts, as
>>  >>  > for a popular project that's a lot of work with no real 
> value as
>>  >>  > mentioned above.
>>  >>
>>  >>  I disagree. Like I said -- being a VP of incubator having to deal 
> with
>>  >>  that type of escalation was not a fun place to be in.
>>  >>
>>  >>  Thanks,
>>  >>  Roman.
>>  >>
>>  >>  
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>> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> --emi
> 

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