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From Josh Elser <els...@apache.org>
Subject Re: On Fluo (was Re: [CANCEL][VOTE] Fluo Parent POM 1-incubating (rc2))
Date Wed, 03 Aug 2016 22:29:33 GMT


John D. Ament wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 3:57 PM Josh Elser<elserj@apache.org>  wrote:
>
>> - I think there is a very fair point brought up by Craig/Justin/John at
>> the gray line between "Apache Fluo" and "fluo.io". However, I will say
>> that I do *not* think this is remotely close to the level that we've
>> seen in other TLPs as of late (will avoid explicit finger-pointing).
>> That said, I think the outcome that the PPMC has came to on their own as
>> next steps is healthy (see dev@fluo list). I also plan to address why
>> some of these software tools which were developed in tandem with Fluo
>> (pre-Apache) were not included with the original incubation proposal (I
>> hadn't realized they were listed on the website as they were). I would
>> venture most are unintentional omissions as the website came verbatim
>> from pre-Apache fluo. The podling has already been responsive to my
>> nit-picks on ASF and Incubator branding requests that I put forth to them.
>>
>
> You have to remember, the incubator is focused on getting projects ready
> for TLP.  These issues tend to become more noticeable.

Yes, completely understood.

>> - One thing that initially worried me is that a software release was
>> being -1'd over podling branding (the later concession to separate the
>> topics did make me happy). Proper branding for podlings, especially ones
>> that have a pre-Apache life, is obviously tricky to do well and cycles
>> of the review are inevitable. However, given how difficult creating
>> properly-licensed ASF releases is, should branding concerns be lumped
>> into release votes? Is there another mechanism by which we as IPMC can
>> give feedback to podlings at a time which they are not already stressed
>> trying to make a software release?
>>
>
> There's certain things that block graduation, and things that block
> releases.  As far as I'm concerned, branding issues did not block this
> release.  Also please note that -1's on releases aren't vetoes.  If you get
> enough +1's it'll pass.

Yes, I do remember that they are majority votes. Because I've worked 
with most of the PPMC members before, I'm well aware that they take to 
heart the severity of getting a -1 from anyone.

> An issue where pre-apache releases were not properly labeled on the
> podlings the website caused me to vote a -1.  Granted, the issue turned
> into a branding problem.  Upon closer inspection, looking at fluo, their
> readme raised a few red flags from my point of view.  I was trying to
> figure out when they went for a full release (not just a pom file) what was
> going to be involved.  Upon looking at
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-fluo/blob/master/README.md I
> incorrectly got the impression that the only way to use fluo was to use
> tools not developed at the ASF.  This is a big red flag.  This turned into
> a really bad discussion over the use of fluo.io.

Thanks for the great synopsis. Your attention to detail is obviously 
appreciated and I wholly understand where your concern came from. I know 
the PPMC is already making positive steps here (their mailing list and 
the further chatter on the failed VOTE thread).

>> I'm reminded of John's
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/BrandingAuditJune2016 which was a
>> great high-level insight across podlings. Are branding-audits something
>> that mentors could drive with their PPMC directly with shepherds/IPMC
>> bringing their concerns directly to the PPMC/metnors (to avoid licensing
>> becoming entangled with branding)? IPMC would obviously still have the
>> ability to escalate things in very heinous situations, but -1'ing
>> releases for website issues doesn't sit right with me presently (I'm
>> happy to be taught otherwise, too).
>>
>
> Yes, I would love to see mentors push their podlings forward, and perhaps
> even maintain this going forward.
>

Cool. I'll have to put some more thought into this as I'll have a few 
other podlings under my belt which I should be paying as close attention 
to their branding as you did.

Thanks again for your attention, John.

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