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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: [ALL] Volunteers for a Math PPMC?
Date Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:08:50 GMT
I see, by being allergic to cross-posting, that I have created the mess I hoped to avoid. 
There are matters here for keeping the Commons Math folk involved so I won't say much here.
 This needs to be addressed at dev-commons.

A couple of comments in-line, 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Carman []
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 04:31
> To:;
> Subject: Re: [ALL] Volunteers for a Math PPMC?
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:11 PM Dennis E. Hamilton
> <>
> wrote:
> > Interesting.  Does this mean migrating Commons Math to a math PPMC
> (not
> > IPMC)?
> >
> > Would the scope be the same?
> >
> >
> I do not know if the scope for Math would change necessarily, but I
> would
> imagine you'd see some new innovations coming from it, such as
> distributed/parallel computing versions of some algorithms.  I would
> leave
> that up to the new PPMC (thanks for the correction) or PMC.   I do know
> that the main person working on it right now, Gilles Sadowski, has some
> plans to split it up into multiple, independent modules so that they can
> have their own release cycles, etc.  This was something suggested by the
> other contributors before they forked ( the
> project
> and did that very thing.

I asked because there are those who propose retiring portions of Commons Math that no one
is maintaining (with some confusion between "stable" and "unmaintainable") The current collection
of packages seems to include some that are more than "small easily-integrated components [without]
complex dependencies and configurations."  That appraisal is definitely superficial on my
part, though.  This is not an expert assessment.

> Would Commons Math go to the Attic?
> >
> >
> This is what I am trying to prevent.  I think Math has a future here at
> the
> ASF and it would be a shame for it to "die" at this time.  My hope is to
> take it to a TLP by way of the Incubator in order to help it gain a
> larger
> community around it.  It really hasn't ever had a large, sustained
> community of contributors (other than us folks in the peanut gallery
> from
> the Commons PMC that aren't math experts like the core group).
> Is there some problem that this is meant to solve?  How is it a
> solution?
> >
> >
> Math has always been an odd bird in Commons, IMHO.  FWIW, here is the
> discussion thread we had about moving it to TLP (the subsequent VOTE
> passed, btw):
> >  - Dennis
> >
> > PS: I have labored through the dev-commons thread on [Math] Commons
> Math
> > (r)evolution, and a few other of the June math-related posts.  I think
> > going through the effort to create an Incubation proposal would be
> useful.
> > You will have to come to grips, and clarity, on whether and to what
> extent
> > this is effectively an ASF-internal fork.  Not that there is anything
> wrong
> > with that.  It is leaving it unresolved that strikes me as solving
> nothing.
> >
> >
> This is *not* a fork!  We (with the blessing of the Commons PMC) would
> be
> moving the code a TLP, but we (maybe just "I" at this point, I don't
> know)
> would like for it to spend a bit of time in the Incubator in order to
> build
> a more diverse community around it and make sure it can stand on its
> own.
> I don't think there is precedent for this, but that doesn't mean it's a
> bad
> idea.  Commons Math's community wasn't large enough to sustain this
> exodus
> (5 people) and it is a pretty bad spot right now, with only one regular
> contributor left over.  I'm not going to go into what caused this
> situation.  We are where we are.  We just need to try to do what's best
> for
> Math and let it move forward.

About attic and forking.  I meant whether the code base that is at Commons Math would be frozen
and in the attic although available for use, just not maintained there.  Folks could be advised
that there is continued development downstream from there in an Apache (podling) project and,
if it graduates, a different TLP.  

Do not assume that graduation of a Podling is a slam dunk.  

"Fork" is not a toxic notion at the ASF, although I understand that the current existence
of non-ASF Commons Math fork is bothersome to those who have put their hearts into Commons
Math and have not defected.

There are a number of technicalities in moving that need to be identified and prepared for.
 Those need to be comprehended (and apply to direct-to-TLP as much as direct-to-Podling).
 It may be just a matter of having greater clarity and appraisal by the Commons Math community.

I am certain that there are Incubator folk who can advise and assist in all of this.  Meanwhile,
the Commons Math and Commons community needs to be on top of the considerations enough to
choose an informed path.

 - Dennis

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