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From "John D. Ament" <johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Pony Mail
Date Fri, 20 May 2016 22:45:49 GMT
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:40 PM Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org> wrote:

> On 05/20/2016 04:26 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
> > Daniel,
> >
> > I'm a bit curious, what does the proposed plan to gain by going through
> > incubation, instead of becoming a TLP directly?
> >
> > Is it the community diversity aspects, to bring in non-infra team members
> > on to the code base?
>
> I would not feel comfortable bringing a project straight to TLP when a
> portion of the initial members of the community have had no experience
> whatsoever with the Apache Way before. What is listed is the bare bones
> group of people who have worked on Pony Mail in one way or the other (I
> should probably add Sam Ruby to that list), there are other peripheral
> people who are curious but also have no experience with Apache.
>
> I would love to use incubation as a way to grow a larger community,
> teach the non-hardcore-ASF people how we do things around here, AND also
> myself learn some more about what the various processes entail. We don't
> really have anyone experienced with releasing code under the ASF banner
> (I've never done that myself), and having the Incubator vet our
> processes and end results would be a great help. There is - to me- so
> much more under the Incubator umbrella that would prove helpful to us
> than if we tried to go straight to TLP.
>
> Furthermore, I feel that incubation is a better (faster?) way to attract
> new contributors in the startup phase of a project. There's more of a
> "let's get cracking on making something awesome!" feeling about it, in
> my view.
>
> Lastly, there are issues like branding etc which is more easily solved
> as a podling.
>
> I hope this has answered your question.
>

It does very clearly.

If you're looking for more mentors, I'd be happy to help (we recommend 3
mentors for a podling).  Granted most of the proposed PPMC qualify as
mentors as well.

I'd also be interested in helping out, I know quite a bit about
elasticsearch, can do some UI, and would be interested in picking up more
lua and python.

John


>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 2:55 PM Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi again folks,
> >> I would formally like to open up a discussion on the following proposal
> >> for the Apache Incubator:
> >>
> >> Pretty version can be found at:
> >> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/PonyMailProposal
> >>
> >>
> >> text-only version follows:
> >> ################################
> >>
> >> Abstract
> >>
> >> Pony Mail is a mail-archiving, archive viewing, and interaction service,
> >> that can be integrated with many email platforms.
> >>
> >> Proposal
> >>
> >> Background
> >>
> >> Pony Mail began as a response to two things; the lack of diversity in
> >> mailing list archives that are less bureaucratic all-or-nothing and more
> >> fluid way to interact with mailing lists than what is typically offered,
> >> and the lack of a performant system that solves this issue. Modern users
> >> of software want to jump right into a discussion they see, but cannot
> >> normally do so in a mailing list driven environment because of the rules
> >> generally surrounding said environment. Pony Mail, along with a select
> >> handful of newer archive systems, provides an interface that allows
> >> people to just hop into a thread, and take part. Without the need to
> >> subscribe, download the mbox archive, load it into your MTA, and
> >> respond.
> >>
> >> As Rich writes in a very short essay:
> >>
> >> You see a thread in which someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET! You need to
> >> correct them. How do you do this today? You kinda don't. If you really
> >> wanted, you could download mbox files (and who the hell knows where they
> >> are?) and then try to get them into your mail client (which never works)
> >> and then reply to it. Which will break threading, because you did
> >> something wrong. Then you tear out your hair. PONY MAIL TO THE RESCUE!!!
> >> (sound of hoof beats)
> >>
> >> Rationale
> >>
> >> One of the oft-heard complaints about Apache's development model is that
> >> mailing lists are an old person's tool, and web-based communication -
> >> forums - are the way to go in the 21st Century. Providing a
> >> full-featured forum-like interface to mailing lists is one goal,while
> >> keeping all of the enormous benefits that mailing lists already provide.
> >> Asecond goal is to provide the ability to "jump in" to a mailing list
> >> conversation - even one that was a while back, without the convolutions
> >> that a mailing list requires. That is, to join this conversation the old
> >> way, one would have had to subscribe to the mailing list, download an
> >> mbox, and import it into ones mail client, in order that I be able to
> >> reply to this message with correct threading. With Pony Mail, one has to
> >> do none of those things, but can simply reply using the Web UI. To us,
> >> this is a HUGE benefit for building community. The requirement to jump
> >> through hoops to join a mailing list conversation drives away a lot of
> >> people (at least, anecdotally, it does) and if we can remove that
> >> barrier I think we'll have an easier time of drawing a new generation
> >> into our projects.
> >>
> >> Initial Goals
> >>
> >> The initial goals of transitioning to the ASF is to expand and grow both
> >> the Pony codebase and community, and ensure the project's continued
> >> growth and stability through forming a diverse and reliable community,
> >> in which the various facets of developers and contributors help keep the
> >> project up to date with latest developments and technical as well as
> >> social needs.
> >>
> >> Current Status
> >>
> >>     Meritocracy:
> >>
> >> The bulk of the code has been written by Daniel Gruno to date, but has
> >> had oversight from other committers, and mentors.
> >>
> >>     All members of the Pony project and wider community have a deep
> >>     understanding and appreciation for the ASF meritocracy ideals, and
> >>     are almost solely current ASF Members.
> >>
> >>     Community:
> >>         The community is currently heavily focused within the ASF, and
> >>         more specifically the Infrastructure group. This is to be
> >>         expected given the nature of how the code came into existence in
> >>         the first place. It should be noted that we have started
> >>         reaching out to other groups who we know are using mailing list
> >>         systems and therefore also rely on mailing list archive
> >>         interfaces.
> >>
> >>     Core Developers:
> >>         Almost all core developers are ASF members, and are already
> >>         intimately familiar with the Apache Way.
> >>
> >>     Alignment:
> >>         Pony will be very in line with ASF practices and processes as
> >>         many of the founding members are long term ASF members and
> >>         committers.
> >>
> >> Known Risks
> >>
> >>     Orphaned products:
> >>
> >>         We are not aware of any issues with orphaned products related to
> >>         this project. Pony Mail relies on a set of CSS3 templates as
> >>         well as some very stable programming languages. We have no
> >>         reason to believe these would be orphaned or, should they become
> >>         orphaned, that it would impact the development of the project.
> >>
> >>     Inexperience with Open Source:
> >>         Most of the current committers are already ASF members and
> >>         committers, we do not believe there to be any concerns around
> >>         OSS inexperience.
> >>
> >>     Homogenous Developers:
> >>         While the current mix of people involved in the project spans
> >>         several continents with a wide variety of skills and experience,
> >>         a long standing relation with the ASF applies to all committers
> >>         (even the non-ASF people in this proposal are intimately
> >>         familiar with the ASF), and we believe there to be a very
> >>         homogeneous culture in terms of development, IP and release
> >>         processes.
> >>
> >>     Reliance on Salaried Developers:
> >>         While two of the committers in this project are salaried
> >>         developers with regards to Pony, the project was founded outside
> >>         of corporate interests, and is primarily driven by people either
> >>         working for or with ties to non-profit organisations. We see no
> >>         issues regarding possible strong-arming or otherwise skewing
> >>         project focus, nor do we believe that absence of salaries would
> >>         deter people from committing to this project.
> >>
> >>     Relationships with Other Apache Products:
> >>         Pony Mail uses at least Apache HTTPd with mod_lua as its
> >>         end-user facing delivery mechanism. Many of the commiters are
> >>         also involved with this PMC.
> >>
> >>         Pony also utilises ElasticSearch which is based on Lucene.
> >>
> >> Documentation
> >>
> >>     Documentation will initially be in the source tree, and be part of
> >>     the initial code inclusion.
> >>
> >> Initial Source
> >>
> >>     The initial source was written under the Apache License v/2.0 from
> >>     the beginning, and is available at:
> >>
> >>     https://github.com/Quenda/ponymail
> >>
> >> Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
> >>
> >>     We know of no legal encumberments in the way of transfer of source
> >>     to Apache. Portions of the software (sans dependencies) is already
> >>     owned by the ASF, other portions privately, but it will be granted
> >>     to the ASF in its entirety.
> >>
> >> External Dependencies:
> >>
> >>     ElasticSearch backend (Apache License v/2.0)
> >>     Apache HTTP Server front-end with mod_lua loaded (Apache License
> >> v/2.0 for httpd, MIT for Lua)
> >>     Python 3.x for importing/archiving (PSF License)
> >>     Lua 5.1 or 5.2 + lua-cjson (MIT License, lua-cjson is optional)
> >>     Bootstrap/JQuery (MIT License)
> >>
> >> Cryptography:
> >>     Pony employs no cryptography other than what TLS-enabled web sites
> >>     served by HTTPd might use.
> >>
> >> Required Resources:
> >>
> >>     Mailing lists: It would be rude not too, given this project should
> >> archive them.
> >>
> >>     Subversion Directory: Nope
> >>
> >>     Git Repositories:
> >>         - incubator-ponymail.git - incubator-ponymail-site.git
> >>
> >>     Issue Tracking: JIRA or GitHub Issues
> >>
> >>     Other Resources: Dev stack, PoC Stack, HipChat Channel
> >>
> >> Initial Committers
> >>
> >>     - Daniel Gruno < humbedooh@apache.org >
> >>     - Tony Stevenson < pctony@apache.org >
> >>     - Richard Bowen < rbowen@apache.org >
> >>     - Ulises Beresi < ulises.cervino@gmail.com >
> >>     - David P Kendal < apache@dpk.io >
> >>     - Francesco Chicchiriccò - < ilgrosso@apache.org >
> >>
> >> Affiliations
> >>
> >>     Daniel Gruno - Quenda IvS
> >>     Tony Stevenson - pctony ltd, VocalIQ Ltd
> >>     Richard Bowen - Redhat, inc.
> >>     Ulises Beresi - Datastax, inc.
> >>     David P Kendal - Quenda IvS
> >>     Francesco Chicchiriccò - Tirasa S.r.l.
> >>
> >> Sponsors
> >>
> >>     Champion: Suneel Marthi < smarthi@apache.org >
> >>
> >>     Nominated Mentors:
> >>         Andrew Bayer < abayer@apache.org >
> >>
> >>     Sponsoring Entity:
> >>         The Apache Software Foundation
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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