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From Marko Rodriguez <>
Subject Re: Apache Metrics, Not Apache Humans
Date Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:13:53 GMT

I suppose the distilled intention of the proposal is to identify the answer(s) to the following

	What makes a "good" open source project?

As I read on general@ and from our project's mentors, "good" is grounded in personal experience
(i.e. anecdotes). Why not use the data you gather to quantify "good." This way its not a "well
I believe," its more of "in this particular situation given these variables, there is a X%
success rate." Also, it leads to more exploration -- "Huh, I don't think I've ever seen an
Apache project do it like that -- hell, give it a try and lets glean the stats from it. If
anything, we learn."

Personally, I'm all about: "Do whatever you want." (try it -- who cares as long as its legal).
However, if there must be structure, perhaps The Apache Way is a local optima? Only a broad
statistical landscape will tell. And only in data gathering and analysis will that landscape
be constructed from the numerous, diverse social/technical experiments -- i.e. Apache projects!
 Without the openness and computational introspection, Apache podlings will simply internalize
the objective of "just do as expected and graduate." The problem is that this only engrains
a particular philosophy/approach that may not be fit in the long run. It just seems (to me)
that this "carrot-on-a-stick model" of podling/top-level is outdated much like our modern
education system (just take the classes, get the grades, give the teacher an apple, and get
the hell out of here).

Again -- just shootin' ideas. I have no bee-in-the-bonet or axe-to-grind. I've just become
interested in how your minds tick...

Take care,

On Nov 17, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Pierre Smits <> wrote:

> It is not the metrics that vote. Humans do.
> Best regards,
> Pierre Smits
> *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Marvin Humphrey <>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Marko Rodriguez <>
>> wrote:
>>>> ...The Apache Way should be about metrics..
>>>> ...Get the human out of the loop!
>>> No.
>>> The ASF is built on the collective wisdom of its members and
>>> community. Having metrics-based projects might be an interesting
>>> experiment, but that's not the ASF.
>> My read of the proposal is that reduces uncertainty for a project
>> attempting to achieve "good health" and discredits any critiques which
>> might be raised by individual humans. Gaming the system can be seen as
>> justifiable if you don't consider the critiques valid and chafe under
>> an authority whose legitimacy you question.
>> Marvin Humphrey
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