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From "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Date Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:26:07 GMT
+1 to the below.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 8:49 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
graduation

>Just to contrast this with the IPMC itself, we discuss everything here,
>including past decisions.
>Almost everything that happens here is a community decision, and we try to
>move with near
>unanimous consent.  It is generally hard to figure out what roles people
>have without some formal
>VOTE where people indicate a binding status on it.
>
>That is what you should aspire to on your dev list- it really shouldn't
>matter what roles people have
>unless we need to be looking at a release.
>
>
>
>On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This may sound a bit pedantic, but the "Sentry project" isn't capable of
>> considering anything.
>> Either you are referring to a decision of the committers or the PPMC or
>> the community, all
>> of which requires some discussion over time about any position being
>> taken.  I would consider
>> it unusual for the project participants to be unanimous on a situation
>> like this or other related
>> matters, and certainly opinions evolve over time.
>>
>> Nobody should put themselves in a position of speaking on behalf of the
>> project.  That is why
>> we have communication channels in the first place and generally refer to
>> on list decisions.
>> The individual positions of the participants should be reflected in any
>> consensus-based decision
>> making.  Not to say everything must be voted on, but collective decision
>> making requires
>> open communication, preferably on public channels.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Lenni Kuff <lskuff@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think there is some confusion here. The Sentry project has never
>>> considered Committer == PMC. The recent website change was only to help
>>> clarify the roles of each of the members of the project, it was not the
>>> result of any decision being made.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lenni
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:03 PM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Nov 4, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Lenni Kuff <lskuff@cloudera.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:05 AM, P. Taylor Goetz
>>><ptgoetz@gmail.com>
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net>
>>>wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's private
list
>>> and
>>> > >>> look over discussions about adding new contributors, and
>>>discussions
>>> > >>> about the project in general.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I took a look.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> From a community growth perspective, I see them adding new
>>> committers,
>>> > >>> which is a good thing. What I don’t see is any discussion
at all
>>> about
>>> > >>> adding PPMC members, nor any discussion about why they chose
to
>>>go
>>> the
>>> > >>> Committer != PPMC route.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> In a thread related to the first new committer being added
[1],
>>>it
>>> is
>>> > >>> pointed out that the podling website stated that Sentry was
>>> Committer
>>> > ==
>>> > >>> PMC, but that the new member vote was only for Committer. At
that
>>> point
>>> > >> it
>>> > >>> looks like the website was updated to reflect Committer !=
PMC.
>>>From
>>> > that
>>> > >>> point on, all new member votes were for Committer only, and
there
>>> were
>>> > no
>>> > >>> discussions regarding adding new PMC members or promoting
>>> committers to
>>> > >> the
>>> > >>> PMC role.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> What I find slightly disconcerting is that there doesn’t
seem to
>>>be
>>> any
>>> > >>> consideration or discussion around growing the PPMC and why
>>>that’s
>>> > >>> important. Sure they have 20-odd PPMC members from the initial
>>> > committers
>>> > >>> list, so it would take a pretty large exodus to render the
>>>project
>>> > unable
>>> > >>> to function, but I don’t see anything to indicate that they
>>> understand
>>> > >> the
>>> > >>> function and importance of growing the PPMC.
>>> > >
>>> > > Background: I am a Sentry community member.
>>> > >
>>> > > I would have to disagree with this. We have identified lack of new
>>> PPMC
>>> > > members as an issue and called out in our board reports. We are
>>>also
>>> > > encouraging non-PPMC members to get involved in ways they can
>>>become
>>> PPMC
>>> > > members - for example, we have had non-PPMC members run two of the
>>> last
>>> > > Sentry releases. As mentioned earlier, it's not like there is no
>>> progress
>>> > > here, we have people who are very close (and I agree that we can
>>>do a
>>> > > better job discussing this on or private@ list). We are  also
>>> > encouraging
>>> > > others in the community to step up, giving them opportunities, and
>>> really
>>> > > striving to build a community around the project.
>>> >
>>> > Fair enough.
>>> >
>>> > Can you point me to the discussion where the project decided to go
>>>with
>>> > Committer != PMC over Committer == PMC?
>>> >
>>> > From an outsider's perspective, that decision just looks like a
>>>single
>>> > commit, without any public discussion, which speaks to the concerns
>>> others
>>> > have raised about decisions being made in private.
>>> >
>>> > -Taylor
>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>

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