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From Arvind Prabhakar <arv...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Date Wed, 04 Nov 2015 02:49:01 GMT
Sorry for the tardy response, I am mostly on the road for this week and
have limited time and access to emails. Some comments below.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:54 AM, Joe Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> wrote:

> <snip>
> If that was your meaning, I do apologize for misinterpreting what you
> said. I do appreciate you understanding that my response was based on an
> honest interpretation of what you wrote.

</snip>


No apologies necessary Joe, I am glad we are on the same page. If anything,
I will be more careful in the future in wording my opinion... I can see how
it may be interpreted the way you read it.

<snip>

Just to be clear - you're
> vouching that all of Sentry's development is happening in the open, and
> Sentry development decisions are not being taken offlist?
>
</snip>


Yes, in my best judgement, I feel the Sentry community is flourishing and
very welcoming of interactions with the broader community of users and
developers. They happen to be Jira centric and I agree that it may not seem
to be as welcoming as a non-Jira centric project. That said, the project's
focus is low-level security integration and it is not something that the
users interact with directly - which in my opinion naturally fits the Jira
centric model.

Regards,
Arvind Prabhakar



On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:

> The point I'm making about project dysfunction is something I've learned to
> expect from projects
> that are using inappropriate means to control the project.  Any time you
> challenge their means of
> control, the response you get will indicate whether or not you are barking
> up the wrong tree.
> The absence of inappropriate feedback is in fact a sign that we are not
> gauging things such
> as they actually are, but are projecting our own perceptions onto the
> project.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The whole point of the ASF's archiving policy is to ensure these types of
> > concerns can
> > be examined objectively by others.  With jira we have the ability to
> drill
> > down in considerably
> > more detail than we do trawling the email archives, but in either case
> any
> > objective attempts
> > to discover inappropriate conduct will fail to yield much fruit.  The
> > committers do work fast
> > when it comes to repairing bugs they discover, but that doesn't mean they
> > are doing things
> > in the wrong order.  I have yet to see a large patch prematurely applied
> > to the repo: the bulk
> > of the patches are minor changes that certainly can be worked out hours
> > after discovering the
> > problem and filing the ticket.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Look at what we don't see- signs of dysfunction.  Even with this thread,
> >> with serious consequences for the podling,
> >> nobody is behaving in a territorial or defensive way about the project.
> >> The feedback has been very reasonable,
> >> respectful of Joe's concerns, and direct.
> >>
> >> I have a strong suspicion that the core problem here is that the mentors
> >> aren't following the commit list, which is
> >> where the jira email trail gets sent.  Looking there you will see a
> >> plethora of examples where tickets, many filed by
> >> non-project participants, are being discussed by several project
> members,
> >> far from the presentation that discussions
> >> are happening off-Apache-infra and tickets are being "shut down" without
> >> public review.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The only thing I might recommend of the podling is to try to leave
> >>> low-hanging fruit in jira unpatched for a longer period of time to
> allow
> >>> outside contributors the ability to participate.  Coupled with
> identifying
> >>> these tickets on the mailing list, that might lead to more outside
> >>> contributions.
> >>>
> >>> I do share the concern that we have several elected committers that
> >>> haven't yet advanced to the ppmc level.
> >>> Perhaps there's not enough project-level mentoring (as opposed to IMPC
> >>> mentoring) going on to bring these newer people along.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I still consider that hearsay evidence.  If you bother to actually
> look
> >>>> at their Jira you will see the vast majority of tickets opened in the
> past
> >>>> month remain open.  I've spent an hour or so myself investigating
> this in
> >>>> some detail and turned up nothing- I invite you and others to do the
> same.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2015, Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com>
wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Nov 3, 2015 11:34 AM, "Joe Schaefer" <joesuf4@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > David,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > The problem with Rich's commentary is that we don't have any
solid
> >>>>> evidence
> >>>>> > to that effect.  Certainly not on a systematic level.
> >>>>> > All I see is a lot of responsiveness from the team about
> >>>>> repair-oriented
> >>>>> > tickets, or some mundane task like updating dependencies.
> >>>>> > I don't find credible evidence to support the claim that
> development
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> > happening prior to filing a ticket about it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sure. I'm not involved in the community, but have had the above
> >>>>> scenario
> >>>>> described to me by two different people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

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