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From Ross Gardler <>
Subject RE: Apache Metrics, Not Apache Humans
Date Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:29:13 GMT
It's a problem when "mentors" tell projects what to do. The role of a mentor is to explain
the pros and cons of different approaches so that the community can make an optimal decision

The Apache Way is indeed about doing what is right for the community. Its not a prescriptive
model. There are very few things in the Apache Way that are fixed (meritocracy, up due diligence
etc.) everything else is flexible so it can be optimized for specific community profiles.

It's true that this can be confusing, but understanding the options and the related pros and
cons is what leads to the right decision for that community.


Sent from my Windows Phone
From: Marko Rodriguez<>
Sent: ‎11/‎17/‎2015 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Apache Metrics, Not Apache Humans


I suppose the distilled intention of the proposal is to identify the answer(s) to the following

        What makes a "good" open source project?

As I read on general@ and from our project's mentors, "good" is grounded in personal experience
(i.e. anecdotes). Why not use the data you gather to quantify "good." This way its not a "well
I believe," its more of "in this particular situation given these variables, there is a X%
success rate." Also, it leads to more exploration -- "Huh, I don't think I've ever seen an
Apache project do it like that -- hell, give it a try and lets glean the stats from it. If
anything, we learn."

Personally, I'm all about: "Do whatever you want." (try it -- who cares as long as its legal).
However, if there must be structure, perhaps The Apache Way is a local optima? Only a broad
statistical landscape will tell. And only in data gathering and analysis will that landscape
be constructed from the numerous, diverse social/technical experiments -- i.e. Apache projects!
 Without the openness and computational introspection, Apache podlings will simply internalize
the objective of "just do as expected and graduate." The problem is that this only engrains
a particular philosophy/approach that may not be fit in the long run. It just seems (to me)
that this "carrot-on-a-stick model" of podling/top-level is outdated much like our modern
education system (just take the classes, get the grades, give the teacher an apple, and get
the hell out of here).

Again -- just shootin' ideas. I have no bee-in-the-bonet or axe-to-grind. I've just become
interested in how your minds tick...

Take care,

On Nov 17, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Pierre Smits <> wrote:

> It is not the metrics that vote. Humans do.
> Best regards,
> Pierre Smits
> *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace*
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Marvin Humphrey <>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Marko Rodriguez <>
>> wrote:
>>>> ...The Apache Way should be about metrics..
>>>> ...Get the human out of the loop!
>>> No.
>>> The ASF is built on the collective wisdom of its members and
>>> community. Having metrics-based projects might be an interesting
>>> experiment, but that's not the ASF.
>> My read of the proposal is that reduces uncertainty for a project
>> attempting to achieve "good health" and discredits any critiques which
>> might be raised by individual humans. Gaming the system can be seen as
>> justifiable if you don't consider the critiques valid and chafe under
>> an authority whose legitimacy you question.
>> Marvin Humphrey
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