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From David Nalley <>
Subject Re: Should Apache VOTEs be in a first-come, first-serve queue?
Date Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:37:39 GMT
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Marko Rodriguez <> wrote:
> Hi,
>> Thanks for making a clear statement because it lets me focus on the
>> question that may be central to this discussion: can you tell us why
>> did you guys decided to join ASF in the first place? This is not a baited
>> question: I'm genuinely curious about what kind of expectations did
>> you have when joining and what did you want to achieve?
>> Because, you see, a project that's part of the foundation can't simply
>> be just 'using' the foundation, it actually has to become part of the
>> foundation, in my mind.
> For me personally, I wanted TinkerPop to be apart of Apache because no one has won a
lawsuit against Apache and I wanted that protecting me and my code as an open source software
> ---------------------------------------

In part, that's because Apache has strong IP policies, but that are
largely people driven. And unfortunately, it's incredibly hard to be
programmatic. There are many tools available - the Creadur project has
some tooling for instance, and there are other tools that help to
analyze things, but others are very subjective. In short, you don't
get the benefits without the associated pain.

>>> I don't expect the users of TinkerPop to have to write my code, they are
>>> there to use it.
>> Well, that a bit black-n-white. Certainly folks who don't want to write
>> TinkerPop code can't be forcefully compelled to do so. Yet, somehow,
>> the way you phrased it makes me suspect that you see it as a firewall
>> between the two communities of users vs. developers. Am I reading
>> this wrong?
> 99.99999999% of people using TinkerPop are not submitting bug reports, pull requests,
ideas, community "votes" on directions, @Deprecation decisions, etc. I do not have any fantasies
that these people should participate in a bi-directional engagement with TinkerPop. Why should
they, they are using the software to solve their particular problems and could care less about
the "TinkerPop community" as long as those releases (bug fixes/optimizations/features) keep
> ---------------------------------------
>>> If I'm not delivering software in a timely manner,
>> *you* (as in Marko Rodriguez) are not delivering software. Your entire
>> development community does. It is a subtle but important distinction
>> that goes to heart of the Apache Governance model: we don't allow
>> BDFLs. Anyone who's part of your community can propose a release
>> at any time.
> No, I deliver software. Likewise, other committers on TinkerPop are delivering software.
Every piece of code written TinkerPop is not an exercise in pair programming. Its "I'm going
to knock X, Y, Z out… give me 24 hours before touching that module on master/." To which
people typically reply: "Sweet. Good luck and thanks for taking the reigns on that one." So,
I go about delivering -- and I do it on time, documented, and tested. Why, cause I wear the
TinkerPop hat and if I'm say I'm TinkerPop, guess what --- you are going to witness me Tinker
that Pop. There is no "Marko, you said would work on that…can you pleeeeease get it done?
Please… Comon… At least respond to my emails."  And I don't use the "I volunteer" excuse
as a way of getting out of having to do things I implicitly promise to do. If I wear that
hat, I do the job the hat entails. And guess what, I'm not "busy" either.
> ---------------------------------------
>>> Likewise for Apache Incubation (though perhaps I'm naive in my assumptions) --
if you
>>> are a mentor, move the artifacts through in a timely manner and don't wait for
>>> project leaders to ping "Hey, can we get a VOTE?…please…pretty please….hello?"
>> That's a very legitimate point. As Ross mentioned a couple of times if there's
>> one actionable AI from this thread this would be feedback to your mentors.
>> Your mentors are your first line of defense on things like release VOTES.
>> That said, they are not the only line of defense. Any IPMC member can
>> vote on your release. But the trick is -- you've got to incentivize
>> them somehow.
>> And no -- $20 won't cut it and is morally wrong. What will cut it is paying
>> it forward perhaps along the lines that Marvin suggested.
> Through my emails here, TinkerPop got the VOTE so my incentivizing-technique worked ---
troll the list and get people fired up. I suspect a few people giggled and thought: "Ha. That
guy is funny if anything. -- +1 binding." To the quiet gigglers out there, curtsy bow. And
unfortunately, if our next release doesn't get VOTEs in a timely manner, another dose of antics
will follow suit. I'll just have to up the ante from public VOTE shaming to something even
more ludicrous. Gotz to entice, right? Marketing.
> ---------------------------------------
>> Let me give you an analogy. You've immigrated to a foreign country and
>> you find it difficult to befriend people. Your hosts are busy with other things
>> and are not facilitating your relationships as quickly as you would like them
>> to do that. At that point 'buying' friends is not really an option, is
>> it? Winning
>> friends is. Now, you may say -- what if I'm a total misanthrope who can't stand
>> other human beings? Well, in that case something like ASF wouldn't work
>> for you. Unlike a foreign country, where you can try to rely on government
>> and other services and attempt never to find out your neighbor's names, ASF
>> is not setup like that. We're a community of volunteers and the only currency
>> we accept is other volunteer's contributions of value.
> This is what I don't understand about how people here talk about Apache. I didn't sign
up to be a social club and have friends. I signed up to have my software legally protected.
In exchange, I will deliver code that people need in order to increase the brand name of Apache
and move it forward for the next generation of developers. That is the extent of the social

We don't really care about increasing the 'Apache brand name' per se.
We think we have a pretty good reputation as it is. That said, we also
realize we aren't for everyone. We aren't the only place that open
source flourishes, or the only method by which it flourishes. However,
we do care MUCH more about our project communities (and we have
different definitions of community - I mean the community of folks
that build, promote, document and write the software) and that social
element is infinitely more important.

I also consider this type of isolationist project a potential threat
to the long term health of the Foundation. If Tinkerpop (the
community) goes off and becomes a silo that never interacts with the
rest of the Foundation, then it diminishes our culture; and while our
culture is and will change over time, preserving our culture as we
grow is key to the survival of what makes the Foundation valuable.
There are plenty of places that will/can generate a Foundation
on-demand. It's not the legal structure that makes the ASF what it is;
I can point to several places that have adopted our governance
structure and corporate structure.

> Honestly --- once TinkerPop leaves Incubation, the first thing I do is unsubscribe from
is this list. I don't care about software for software's sake. I'm not saying its bad to care,
its good that mentors exist, its just not my thing. Call me evil, but I also don't care about
other people's work. I have my work: the code I write and the ideas I publish on. Thats all
I got and that all I want. In image, if you wear the Apache member/mentor hat, … you too
busy? I understand, you volunteer. Yes, I know -- you have a day job too. Yes…. yes… I
completely sympathize… we have all heard the cliches.
> ---------------------------------------
>>>> Your answers will likely say a lot about the dynamics of getting people to
>>>> help each other. It is hard to do and a human touch goes further than
>>>> setting hurdles.
>>> This is where I lose you guys. Why are humans involved in a process that should
be automated.
>>>        1. MD5, SHA1, PGP can be automatically checked.
>>>        2. Unzip and see if the data is corrupted can be done automatically.
>>>        3. LICENSE verification is difficult, but I suspect with some markup language
for LICENSE and pom.xml analysis, this can be done automatically.
>>>        4. mvn clean install (BUILD SUCCESS can be verified automatically).
>>>        5. ...
>> Because if I had 5c for every time a novel way to screw up IP hygiene comes
>> up in young communities I'd be a millionaire. In fact, if you ever worked for
>> a commercial company that produces software based on open source projects
>> you must've done something like a Black Duck scan. I don't have to tell
>> you what kind of things get uncovered. Long story short: "a dude-in-the-loop"
>> stays ;-)
>> Now, here's how you can make that dude's life so easy that not voting on
>> your release would not make any sense -- automate EVERYTHING that
>> can be automated and include the results in your VOTE thread. Better yet:
>> give me a Docker container where $ docker run will repro everything you've
>> automated by on my own workstation.
>> Then you can turn this conversation around and ask: what ELSE are your
>> mentors spending their time on. And those things better be various human-level
>> heuristics.
> I did my part for TinkerPop today. Again, I don't care about social/software infrastructure
-- *yawn*. I'm tired from battle and must rest up for the next release -- sharpen my weapons
and strengthen my armor. Freeeeeeeeeedom from Incubation!
> ---------------------------------------

If you don't care about social/software infrastructure, perhaps the
ASF isn't the right home.
I seem to recall this in some of our original pre-incubator discussions.


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