incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From David Nalley <>
Subject Re: Should Apache VOTEs be in a first-come, first-serve queue?
Date Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:54:13 GMT
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <> wrote:
> Hi Marko,
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Marko Rodriguez <> wrote:
>>> I think that Marvin's question to you was pretty cogent. Would you be
>>> willing to spend an hour or so each on 5 different projects you aren't
>>> involved in before getting to put your own project up for a release? Would
>>> it change your willingness if most of the community behind some of those
>>> projects not only aren't willing to review your project, but they aren't
>>> even willing to review their own project carefully and cast a vote?
>> I use Apache, I am not Apache.
> Thanks for making a clear statement because it lets me focus on the
> question that may be central to this discussion: can you tell us why
> did you guys decided to join ASF in the first place? This is not a baited
> question: I'm genuinely curious about what kind of expectations did
> you have when joining and what did you want to achieve?
> Because, you see, a project that's part of the foundation can't simply
> be just 'using' the foundation, it actually has to become part of the
> foundation, in my mind.
>> I don't expect the users of TinkerPop to have to write my code, they are
>> there to use it.
> Well, that a bit black-n-white. Certainly folks who don't want to write
> TinkerPop code can't be forcefully compelled to do so. Yet, somehow,
> the way you phrased it makes me suspect that you see it as a firewall
> between the two communities of users vs. developers. Am I reading
> this wrong?
>> If I'm not delivering software in a timely manner,
> *you* (as in Marko Rodriguez) are not delivering software. Your entire
> development community does. It is a subtle but important distinction
> that goes to heart of the Apache Governance model: we don't allow
> BDFLs. Anyone who's part of your community can propose a release
> at any time.
>> Likewise for Apache Incubation (though perhaps I'm naive in my assumptions) -- if
>> are a mentor, move the artifacts through in a timely manner and don't wait for the
>> project leaders to ping "Hey, can we get a VOTE?…please…pretty please….hello?"
> That's a very legitimate point. As Ross mentioned a couple of times if there's
> one actionable AI from this thread this would be feedback to your mentors.
> Your mentors are your first line of defense on things like release VOTES.

(Disclaimer: I'm a Tinkerpop mentor)
Yes, you should feel free to ping your mentors if you aren't getting
attention. Feel free to reach out to us via direct email, IRC,
Hipchat, Twitter, etc.
My experience in a incubator project is that I had to directly reach
out to mentors for almost each and every vote. Here's the reality.
Most people aren't paid to mentor. Many are paid to work on other
projects at the ASF, and mentor because they care. Most mentors are
also mentoring multiple projects at once. Part of this is because of
the fact that we have ~30 projects in incubation at any point in time.
Most are also committers and PMC members on projects they are actively
involved in. I try and look in on projects I am mentoring once a week.
I don't always accomplish that, but feel free to ping me directly and
grab my (or any of your mentors) attention.

> That said, they are not the only line of defense. Any IPMC member can
> vote on your release.

This too, feel free to escalate to the IPMC if you aren't getting the
mentor attention you need.

> And no -- $20 won't cut it and is morally wrong. What will cut it is paying
> it forward perhaps along the lines that Marvin suggested.
> Let me give you an analogy. You've immigrated to a foreign country and
> you find it difficult to befriend people. Your hosts are busy with other things
> and are not facilitating your relationships as quickly as you would like them
> to do that. At that point 'buying' friends is not really an option, is
> it? Winning
> friends is. Now, you may say -- what if I'm a total misanthrope who can't stand
> other human beings? Well, in that case something like ASF wouldn't work
> for you. Unlike a foreign country, where you can try to rely on government
> and other services and attempt never to find out your neighbor's names, ASF
> is not setup like that. We're a community of volunteers and the only currency
> we accept is other volunteer's contributions of value.
>>> Your answers will likely say a lot about the dynamics of getting people to
>>> help each other. It is hard to do and a human touch goes further than
>>> setting hurdles.
>> This is where I lose you guys. Why are humans involved in a process that should be
>>         1. MD5, SHA1, PGP can be automatically checked.
>>         2. Unzip and see if the data is corrupted can be done automatically.
>>         3. LICENSE verification is difficult, but I suspect with some markup language
for LICENSE and pom.xml analysis, this can be done automatically.
>>         4. mvn clean install (BUILD SUCCESS can be verified automatically).
>>         5. ...
> Because if I had 5c for every time a novel way to screw up IP hygiene comes
> up in young communities I'd be a millionaire.

This is so true. And it's not just limited to podlings. TLPs however
generally have a few people already embedded in the community who
understand the IP processes and catch them more easily.

> In fact, if you ever worked for
> a commercial company that produces software based on open source projects
> you must've done something like a Black Duck scan. I don't have to tell
> you what kind of things get uncovered. Long story short: "a dude-in-the-loop"
> stays ;-)
> Now, here's how you can make that dude's life so easy that not voting on
> your release would not make any sense -- automate EVERYTHING that
> can be automated and include the results in your VOTE thread. Better yet:
> give me a Docker container where $ docker run will repro everything you've
> automated by on my own workstation.
> Then you can turn this conversation around and ask: what ELSE are your
> mentors spending their time on. And those things better be various human-level
> heuristics.
> Thanks,
> Roman.


To unsubscribe, e-mail:
For additional commands, e-mail:

View raw message