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From Daniel Gruno <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Graduate Ignite from the Apache Incubator
Date Sun, 26 Jul 2015 22:13:12 GMT
I'll keep it short :)

I fully agree that many of these issues should have been addressed much 
earlier, it would have been better that way.
I don't think our current incubation process in tandem with this being a 
volunteer process is "doing the right thing" at all times, and I am more 
than willing to help look into what we can do to better this. I think 
the IPMC did the right thing by saying "whoah, we need to address these 
issues first", but yes, it should have happened sooner.

We need to look into how we can, with the resources we have, assure that 
when it comes to a vote, the right procedures are in place and we know 
what to answer people who raise concerns. In this case, we were (as is 
apparent) surprised by what we discovered, and it all came at once like 
a snowball rolling down a hill. In part because we are economically 
minded people - we don't focus on an issue unless it is an issue, or 
we'd have to spend hours every day looking after 40+ podlings, in part 
because we have a system in place that is prone to cause this.

The system needs to get better so we don't end up with one huge fight at 
the end, but I think the concerns were/are genuinely valid, albeit in 
the wrong place of the process.

With regards,

On 2015-07-27 00:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Daniel, I agree with almost all your points about process (I do not have an opinion on
Ignite, the mentors have expressed their opinion based in feedback in this thread, the IPMC
will ultimately decide on whether graduation is appropriate).
> My complaint about process is that these things should be uncovered and discussed during
incubation not at some "gate" controlled by the IPMC but triggered by mentors sending a Discuss
> The IPMC absolutely should not rubber stamp things. So why is it that the report process
hasn't highlighted these concerns during incubation? (a genuine question with no accusation
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel Gruno<>
> Sent: ‎7/‎26/‎2015 1:55 PM
> To:<>
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Graduate Ignite from the Apache Incubator
> Apologies in advance for slightly crossing threads here.
> Even though I have already sent quite a lot of emails on this subject
> (12 over the past week!), I feel I must reply to some of the concerns
> and opinions expressed in the last few emails. I do not like it when
> concerns are answered with the notion that it is perhaps caused by the
> concerned party being uneducated, as I believe there are deeper issues
> at play here. Nor do I agree with any notion that the IPMC should be a
> rubber stamp.
> But let's get some facts straight first:
> - The champion of the project created a DISCUSS thread prior to a
> potential vote. Not a VOTE thread, but a DISCUSS thread. This implies
> that a subject is to be reviewed and discussed.
> - During this discussion thread, concerns were raised by people outside
> of the IPMC.
> - Members of the IPMC looked into the concerns, as any governing body
> should, and while doing so, discovered other issues that were brought to
> the attention of the podling. These issues ranged from bad wording,
> which were unfortunately favorable to a specific company, to more
> procedural issues in maintaining transparency in development.
> - Some of these issues were fixed, some were debated/refuted, and some
> are 'pending' later review (chiefly cultural and procedural issues raised)
> The fact that the IPMC members found other issues while investigating
> concerns does not, in my view, equal 'micro management'. I think it
> shows that having people outside the specific podling look into it can
> shed some light on matters that were perhaps overlooked by mentors, and
> that is a good thing. Very specific issues were highlighted because they
> showed exactly where the supposed disconnect in procedure was. I believe
> having specific data points to present helps a great deal in fixing
> procedures.
> We can debate whether the IPMC should have found these issues earlier,
> as Ross rightfully suggests, but nonetheless, the following is (I hope)
> true:
> The IPMC, just like the board of directors, trust the mentors - just
> like the board trusts the PMCs - to do their best in reporting the true
> status of a podling/project. The IPMC, just like the board, does not
> rubber-stamp blindly. If concerns are raised, the IPMC, just like the
> board, will look into issues, and if that search yields anything worth
> asking about (even if that turns out to be some other issue found during
> the investigation), then the IPMC, just like the board, will ask the
> podling/project whether this is true and whether they are currently
> working on fixing it or will fix it.
> I fail to see the disconnect, nor do I see it as 'punishment from up
> high' as was suggested. There were a few emails where the tone should
> have been more polite or diplomatic (FOSSers can get quite grumpy, we
> should try our best not to), but on the whole, this discussion has been
> one of facts (specifically an inquiry into why the findings of some
> people are inconsistent with the findings of others) and policy.
> We all have day jobs, we have hobbies, we have family, we have beds we
> sleep in for quite a lot of hours every day. That coupled with our other
> commitments to ASF projects makes it nigh impossible to stay up to date
> with what's going on in every single podling, which in turn means that
> when we finally do, every single thing, that should have been mentioned
> perhaps months ago, suddenly rains down on the podling within a matter
> of days. This is indeed unfortunate and not always very fair to the
> podling, but it is a result of how the incubator works and how people work.
> This thread has been long, and I'm not interested in having it go on
> forever. The IPMC has given feedback to the podling, the podling has
> either complied or promised to comply with this. Given enough time for
> procedural changes to become visible and consistent, I think the mentors
> should then start a vote on graduation.
> With regards,
> Daniel.
> On 2015-07-25 22:27, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Branko Čibej <> wrote:
>>> On 24.07.2015 21:00, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
>>>> An an active mentor of the podling I do support the graduation. The last,
>>>> my knowledge, concern expressed was about insufficient open discussions of
>>>> new features on the dev@ and that has been addressed by [1]
>>>> WRT your observation: I do think the diversity part in the graduation
>>>> requirement is moot and, as this discussion shows, quite counter-productive.
>>>> will start a separate [DISCUSS] about reconsidering its presence in the
>>>> guidelines.
>>>> [1]
>>> Seconded.
>> Makes three of us. As a mentor, I fully support graduation of this podling.
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>> P.S. Also, after going through the thread, I still maintain that I have nothing
>> to add to what I've already said wrt. perception on what diversity requirement
>> really means. As somebody who's been with the IPMC for almost 5 years now
>> I would like to make an observation: we seem to get confused from time to time
>> on what the real purpose and status of the IPMC is. Perhaps this corresponds
>> to the waves of new folks joining us in which case I'm totally happy
>> with us educating
>> them on those things (I just hope it doesn't turn into an "Eternal September").
>> Perhaps instead of trying to forever hunt for yet another corner case
>> in an attempt
>> to fully document the incubation process we all could just remember that:
>>      #1 our ultimate mission is to help the ASF board not waste their time with
>>           communities that, if looked at as a TLP, would surely trigger
>> a board action
>>           of some kind.
>>      #2 The #1 goal is achieved via mentorship. In fact mentorship is
>> not even required
>>           as the case of Zest (and hopeful Yetus soon) demonstrated.
>>      #3 When mentorship is required IPMC entrusts the mentors to guide
>> the project to
>>           graduation. It should should let them do that.
>>      #4 IPMC should NOT be confused with an ASF project. This is
>> incoherent given its
>>           size and composition. The Incubator is a curriculum, not a community.
>> In short, I'd like to see IPMC behave more like the ASF board, and
>> provide an effective
>> oversight over the mentors not micro management. This is a tough
>> balance, I know.
>> Yet, I'm sure that folks here in general mean well and are capable of
>> striking that very
>> balance.
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
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