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From Daniel Gruno <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Graduate Ignite from the Apache Incubator
Date Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:50:26 GMT

On 2015-07-22 00:47, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:33AM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
>> On 2015-07-22 00:15, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Daniel Gruno <> wrote:
>>>> Accusation of what exactly?
>>> Quoting Roy out of context.
>>> Here's what you said: "Quoting Roy out of context is not a Hail Mary you can
>>> just throw out there when someone disagrees with you."
>>>> To the best of my knowledge, Roy has not been a part of the Ignite
>>>> discussion, nor is he quoting policy in that particular sentence, but
>>>> stating his opinion that the published Incubator policy should be overlooked
>>>> (to which I disagree). Yes, he explains in rigorous detail why he thinks
>>>> way he thinks, but that is still an _opinion_, and quoting it as if it is
>>>> policy (our published policy still begs to differ) is something I will
>>>> consider as being out of context,
>>> Then you should've said "quoting it as if it is policy". Because you see:
>>>     "quoting it as if it is policy" != "Quoting Roy out of context"
>>> Precision of language in contentious online discussions is of paramount
>>> importance.
>>> This time I'll chalk up our misunderstanding to your sloppy use of language
>>> in that particular sentence.
>> I don't believe I was being sloppy in my use of language, but I
>> don't want to turn this into a battle over which dictionary is the
>> best, despite your counter-accusation of my sloppy verbal skills.
>>> Which brings us back to what you actually wanted to say, which is: "quoting it
>>> as if it is policy". That was NOT my intent. My intent was to *highlight* what
>>> I took as a very insightful statement made in discussion extremely similar
>>> to the one we're having here 3 years after the original discussion.
>>> Roy's statement changed the way I think about ASF and IPMC. That was all I
>>> was trying to communicate.
>> Be that as it may, if people have concerns about it, and it's still
>> in the policy docs, you either acknowledge and try your best to deal
>> with these concerns, or you work to change the policy, preferably in
>> a _separate channel_, you don't just dismiss it.
> The guidelines - not the _policy_ mind you - says exactly this:
> "A major criterion for graduation is to have developed an open and diverse
> meritocratic community."
The policy says the podling SHALL "Demonstrate an active and diverse 
development community".
One can argue that this is somewhat open to interpretation.

> So far there wasn't a single fact showing that the proposed podling has failed
> to do this.
While there is a high concentration of PMC members from one company, 
yes, it is not axiomatic that this leads to bad things.
I have not stated that this particular issue is a problem.

> If such facts aren't brought to the attention of the IPMC I'd
> suggest we just drop the matter and/or move the further "policy" discussions to
> a separate thread to establish the semantics of that statements, if so
> desired.

I would very much like that :)
Clearly there is disagreement in the Incubator on the importance and 
meaning of this specific element of the published policy.

With regards,
> Cos
>> I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with whether it is the _right_
>> policy, I am merely stating that it IS in our published policy and
>> that concerns have been raised relating to this. This particular bit
>> has nothing to do with Ignite, but graduation in general.
>> With regards,
>> Daniel.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roman.
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