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From Greg Stein <>
Subject Re: my pTLP view
Date Sat, 24 Jan 2015 04:37:01 GMT
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 8:08 PM, Andrew Purtell <> wrote:

> project, they become a PPMC, a podling. Sure, the IPMC provides oversight,
> and the board again, but the PPMC can make binding votes on committers,
> releases, everything that matters - provisionally, of course, which is
> completely acceptable.

"provisionally, of course" .. that is exactly Roman's point. TODAY, the
PPMC has no ownership. It is completely subjugated to the whims of the IPMC.

The pTLP concept replaces the IPMC with a group of a few ASF Members that
are dedicated/interested in that specific community. The community doesn't
end up with 100+ random IPMC members who care less about the community.
Instead, it gets some volunteers who are responsible to listen, to guide,
and to assist the community with becoming part of the Foundation.

That community can still create consensus. And the PMC will/should obey
that consensus. If it does NOT, then the Board axes them. Every PMC works
this way. Always has.

The PMC may be "all powerful" (or more specifically: the VP singularly),
but when the Board hears that a VP or a PMC is working against the
community? Shit gets real, and heads start to roll. The Board doesn't take
kindly to that.

This all changes if the PMC does not include any
> members of the incoming community. There isn't even a provisional ownership
> stake in the endeavor. When Apache grants the incoming community a
> provisional binding stake in the process, this establishes trust.

The incoming community has NEVER had a stake in the outcome. That's what
Roman has been trying to say.

You seem to be under the impression that the PMC will work against the
community. That is a baseless opinion. Name a precedent.

I've been here for 16+ years. I haven't seen that yet. As a Director for
almost 14 years, I have reviewed *thousands* of project reports. Read
umpteen mailing lists. Reviewed archives. Investigated JIRA conflicts. Not
once have I seen a PMC actively work against its community, as you describe.

Have you? Would love a pointer, if you have one.

> I don't agree that the chances ASF PMC members of pTLP will start actively
> overriding votes is slim to none.  I've been around here for a while and
> spent some time in Hadoop land. The process is not infallable. The
> membership is not infallable. To ensure the probability of better outcomes
> no matter what happens during an incubation, the incoming community should
> be treated more like partners in a common endeavor with a full stake in the
> process than what is proposed here.

Again, you believe the PMC won't act as partners. I call bullshit.


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