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From Ross Gardler <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:09:28 GMT
Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and
make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll
refrain from doing so.

I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a
suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe
someone else has a bright idea.

My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer
organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar
might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something
similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks:

"I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to a
perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the
Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at
that point?"

Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too cautious.

On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
> Since I realize that most of you can't be
> bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-),
> I'll go ahead and post the current content
> here for commentary.  I hope the bulk of it
> is non-controversial, though some of it may
> not belong on the page...
> ------------------------------------------------
> First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC, podlings have
no official standing in the corporation known as The Apache Software Foundation. So technically,
it is a farce to claim that podlings have any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about
here are promises and covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor.
>     1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and guidance from
their mentors. That minimally includes participation in release votes, discussions and votes
on new personnel, and signing off on a podling's quarterly reports.
>     2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such podlings have
the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority consensus vote on their private list.
Just don't be denigrating about it, since mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff.
>     3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors have the right to ask
general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer.
>     4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be read, reviewed,
and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who are typically outside the podling's
set of mentors.
>     5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything related to
their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such
communications as if they were sent anonymously.
>     6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning their incubation
efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an anonymous survey.
>     7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on general@incubator in the
middle of a VOTE thread, especially during releases. Reminder- release votes are a majority
consensus vote, so seeing a few -1's occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM
should they otherwise see a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes.
>     8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to general@incubator.
Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed along by the podling's mentors.
> ------------------------------------------------
> Comments and critiques welcome.  I'd like to
> move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement
> VOTE on this over the course of the remainder
> of June, so please be constructive!
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