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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:13:41 GMT
Did you read the topmatter disclaimer about the terminology?
Anyway no podling has a guaranteed "right" to a sufficient number
of mentors, that's why I didn't bother addressing Upayavira's
concern.  That is a best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability
not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights".

----- Original Message -----
> From: Ross Gardler <>
> To:; Joe Schaefer <>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
> Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and
> make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll
> refrain from doing so.
> I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a
> suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe
> someone else has a bright idea.
> My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer
> organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar
> might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something
> similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks:
> "I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to a
> perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the
> Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at
> that point?"
> Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too cautious.
> On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>>  Since I realize that most of you can't be
>>  bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-),
>>  I'll go ahead and post the current content
>>  here for commentary.  I hope the bulk of it
>>  is non-controversial, though some of it may
>>  not belong on the page...
>>  ------------------------------------------------
>>  First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC, 
> podlings have no official standing in the corporation known as The Apache 
> Software Foundation. So technically, it is a farce to claim that podlings have 
> any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about here are promises and 
> covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor.
>>      1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and 
> guidance from their mentors. That minimally includes participation in release 
> votes, discussions and votes on new personnel, and signing off on a 
> podling's quarterly reports.
>>      2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such 
> podlings have the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority consensus 
> vote on their private list. Just don't be denigrating about it, since 
> mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff.
>>      3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors have the 
> right to ask general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer.
>>      4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be 
> read, reviewed, and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who 
> are typically outside the podling's set of mentors.
>>      5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything 
> related to their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman 
> <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such communications as if they were 
> sent anonymously.
>>      6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning their 
> incubation efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an anonymous 
> survey.
>>      7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on 
> general@incubator in the middle of a VOTE thread, especially during releases. 
> Reminder- release votes are a majority consensus vote, so seeing a few -1's 
> occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM should they otherwise see 
> a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes.
>>      8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to 
> general@incubator. Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed along by 
> the podling's mentors.
>>  ------------------------------------------------
>>  Comments and critiques welcome.  I'd like to
>>  move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement
>>  VOTE on this over the course of the remainder
>>  of June, so please be constructive!
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