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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:37:18 GMT
> From: Roman Shaposhnik <>
>To:; Joe Schaefer <> 
>Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 3:26 PM
>Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
>On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>>> So isn't learning this bit of information a crucial part of graduation?
>>> After
>>> all, once the project leaves the incubator its commiters and PMC won't have
>>> an access to the Ombudsman, isn't it in all of our best interest to teach
>>> them from the get-go what you've just described above?
>> Not really, because the type of information we're looking for is about the
>> IPMC, not the podling.
>Perhaps I misunderstood your idea with this new Ombudsman, but to me
>it sounded like you wanted, above all, a *safe* way for podling to complain.
>IOW, a kind of a way where their complaints will be heard yet their identity
>protected. If that's not your primary concern -- then I really feel like
>an Ombudsman represented yet another layer of bureaucracy and as
>such I'd be -0 on it.

Technically it's Alan's proposal not mine, but we're not all that different
in spirit.  The "complaints" we are looking for are about the incubation
process, not about the podling's efforts at self-governance.  It is important
to me that whomever is in the role of receiving such complaints not get
themselves in the middle of a project dispute- it's important for podlings
and full projects alike to deal with their own issues themselves through
the normal channels.

>> Isn't this an academic question?  Those of us that have been here a while have
>> seen any number of cases where podling committers feel frustrated about the
>> process and powerless to do anything about it.  This isn't a new problem.
>As you probably noticed, I've only started this discussion in the context
>of a PodlingBillOfRights. You did a great job of *reminding* podlings of
>their rights. Note, that just like in criminal law -- not reading somebody their
>Miranda rights doesn't mean they don't have them -- but reading them
>does make a huge difference. I think we can all agree that podlings already
>have those rights -- we are just making it really explicit.
>In that line of thought, what's not clear to me is what would be the
>difference if we changed your right #5 to:
>5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything
>related to
>their incubation to their mentors and in private to the IPMC chair
>(email goes here).
>If they feel their concerns are still not being addressed they have a
>right to escalate
>to or all the way to the ASF board at
>This is the same right as given to all ASF project members.

That would be perfectly fine with me if the Ombudsman proposal does not meet
with the group's approval.  I would in any case like to stabilize the document
with a proper email alias for the communications, so either ombudsman@incubator
or vp@incubator would be fine for that.

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