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From Arun C Murthy <>
Subject Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)
Date Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:47:16 GMT
Could agree more with Chris and Ross.

I've seen, first hand, at Hadoop the behaviour of significant portions of the PMC not being
present in one of the 3 sub-projects we have (HDFS, YARN, MapReduce) and has led to significant
issues in the community and in the PMC.

Along with folks like Chris I've been very vocal about pushing the Hadoop project to break
up, unfortunately there seem to be little progress to break them up. 

So, overall, please be very careful about sub-projects.


PS: Yes, as the Chair, I've flagged this to the Board.

On Nov 20, 2012, at 6:47 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> Fromt he peanut gallery of someone who has participated in a number of sub-projects
> over the years (Nutch, Tika, Solr, Hadoop, etc.): I don't think they have a big place
at the
> ASF. The word "project" implies "community". Sub communities == umbrella projects ==

> pain, and suffering.
> OTOH, sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple "products", like e.g.,

> like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product; PyLucene is a product),
> that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in the sub "products"
> not separate communities, they just release different portions of the software that they
> their itch on.
> My 2c.
> Cheers,
> Chris
> On Nov 20, 2012, at 3:28 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 20 November 2012 11:18, Benson Margulies <> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Luciano Resende <>
>>>>> ...Nuvem has a great synergy with Apache Tuscany, and after
>>>>> discussion between the two projects, we are seeking IPMC approval to
>>>>> graduation of Apache Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany....
>>>> Can you clarify what this means? Do all members of the Nuvem PPMC
>>>> become Tuscany PMC members?
>>> Bertrand, this is a great opportunity to clarify the board's attitude
>>> toward 'subprojects'. Ever since the campaign to dismantle umbrellas,
>>> I've been confused about what structures the board would find
>>> reasonable.
>> I don't speak for the board, but my opinion is that if a sub-project
>> is OK as long as it is actively managed by the same PMC as the parent
>> project.
>> Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
>> its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
>> in the sub-project and thus fail to provide appropriate oversight. The
>> more sub-projects there are in a project the more likely this is to
>> happen.
>> I'm interested to hear if this is also the opinion of others and thus
>> I've changed the subject. In terms of Nuvem I'm interested in the
>> answer to Bertrands question.
>> Ross
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Arun C. Murthy
Hortonworks Inc.

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