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From Ralph Goers <>
Subject Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)
Date Thu, 24 May 2012 06:18:51 GMT

On May 23, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote:

> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Ralph Goers
> <> wrote:
>> On May 23, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:09 PM, Ralph Goers
>>> <> wrote:
>>>> Right after I read Jukka's email that started this thread and I posted my
reply and discovered to my shock that they had started a graduation vote.  I am shocked because
I have pointed out repeatedly the project's complete lack of diversity.  Virtually all the
active PMC members and committers work for the same employer.  I have told them several times
that I would actually like to participate in the project but the way the project works is
very different then every other project I am involved with at the ASF and the barriers to
figure out what is actually going on is very high. Almost nothing is discussed directly on
the dev list - it is all done through Jira issues or the Review tool.  While all the Jira
issue updates and reviews are sent to the dev list most of that is just noise.  Feel free
to review the dev list archives to see what I am talking about.
>>> I don't follow flume, but I'd propose to soften your objection only
>>> slightly. I've met other groups of people who like a JIRA centric view
>>> of the world. I suspect that if they did a bunch of other good things
>>> called out below, you or others would find the JIRA business
>>> digestible. Also, on the other hand, I fear that the co-employed
>>> contributors are collaborating in the hallway, and the lack of the
>>> context in JIRA or on the list is contributing to the problem.
>> I have reason to doubt the collaboration in the hallway aspect and I certainly do
not doubt everyone's good intent.  I'm not objecting to the collaboration style as an issue
preventing graduation. I'm just saying I find it difficult to participate with that style
and that simply makes me wonder if that is making it harder to attract new committers.  I
fully realize that that issue might just be with me, but the fact remains that there is practically
no diversity in the project and I cannot in good conscience recommend graduation for a project
in that situation.
> Hi Ralph, Benson, et. al., some background:
> Flume is similar to Hadoop and other related projects in that it is
> very jira heavy for development activity. No slouch in terms of
> mailing list traffic either though (1200 last month):

Sorry I didn't include this in my prior post but here you are making my point exactly.  I
participate in several other Apache projects. Wading through 1200+ emails per month that are
largely Jira/Review noise makes it very difficult for me to find posts that have any value.
As a consequence I am largely forced to simply delete everything generated by he Review tool
and Jira.  And I'm a mentor. I just don't see how newcomers are going to find this style welcoming.


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