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From Alan Gates <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] BOM and supported platforms for Bigtop 0.4.0
Date Thu, 03 May 2012 18:46:44 GMT

I see your point that many Apache projects include non-Apache code in their binary distributions.
 But there is a distinction here.  In the case of Hadoop and other projects, they bring things
such Guava along because they need them, not for the express purpose of distributing those
artifacts.  Bigtop, by its nature, is different because it provides artifacts for users to
download regardless of what other components they need.  It is the difference between "we
include this because we need it" and "we include this because you might want it".  

My concern is that this is a slippery slope.  There are lots of other things people use with
Hadoop (Ganglia for monitoring, Postgres for their Hive metastore, Cascading, etc.).  Would
we want Bigtop distributing those?  This would consume a lot of Apache resources to host these
things on the download servers.  

Additionally, we need to think about maintaining Apache's brand.  When we redistribute Apache
binaries, we know those have gone through an established release process.  With non-Apache
binaries, even those that are APL, we know nothing of their releases processes, code quality,
etc.  I do not mean this as a slight to Hue nor any of the projects mentioned above.  But
if we let one in we will have to let others in.  Again this is important because we would
be opening ourselves up as a distribution point for those projects independent of their usage
in other Apache projects.

By drawing the line at distributing only Apache projects we protect Apache both in terms of
server resource usage and in branding.

As Bruno pointed out in the thread on bigtop-dev (
) this does limit Bigtop, so I understand the motivation to do it.  But before we take this
step it merits discussion in the community.

Finally, a comment on the role of mentors.  You were concerned that Owen was vetoing this
for non-technical reasons.  Your mentors are not here to guide the project just, or even primarily,
technically.  We are here to help the project learn the Apache way.  It is perfectly legitimate,
even expected, for a mentor to raise non-techincal concerns such as these.


On May 3, 2012, at 8:23 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:

> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Owen O'Malley <> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Eric Baldeschwieler
>>> <> wrote:
>>>> So you are suggesting expanding the charter to include projects not hosted
at Apache?
>>> I don't think this is what Bruno suggested. Personally I can't find
>>> any reference in Bigtop
>>> charter that restricts it to Projects that belong to Apache Software
>>> Foundation.
>> As a mentor of the Bigtop project, I don't see it as acceptable for an
>> Apache project to distribute binaries of non-Apache software.
> In that case, I suggest you start with filing upstream JIRAs for pretty much
> all of the Hadoop ecosystem projects kindly asking them to remove
> dependencies on non-ASF (but APL!) projects like Guava libraries. Until
> that happens there's very little Bigtop can do.
>> If the owners of the Hue project decide to donate it to Apache and it had
>> been released by Apache, then it would be acceptable. I'm strictly -1
>> on releasing any version of Bigtop with Hue or any other non-Apache
>> software as part of the release.
> I would like to point out, that your -1 on Hue is highly inconsistent for the
> reason I mentioned above. I'm not sure what rules ASF has for gratuitous
> -1 votes devoid of clear technical reasoning, but I'm sure as a project
> mentor you can help us find out what that policy is.
> Thanks,
> Roman.
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