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From Benson Margulies <>
Subject Re: PPMC to IPMC
Date Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:31:42 GMT
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Karl Wright <> wrote:
> My opinion: It's one thing to try to involve yourself in the fortunes
> of one or two projects in addition to your own, and be willing to
> provide general opinions, and be willing to contribute content to the
> incubator's policy pages.  But the incubator is so huge these days and
> so diverse that just keeping track of the current issues could become
> a major timesink.  And there's no obvious mechanism for drawing a
> line, limiting contributions to bite-sized pieces, and keeping
> involvement to a manageable level.  Although, I haven't checked out
> JIRA for the incubator; maybe that's a good place to start?

Well, there's good news and bad news here. Most concretely, the most
specific 'whole incubator' issue these days is recruiting more members
of the IPMC who are willing to help with overall supervision, and in
particular with reading podling monthly reports before they get
forwarded to the board.

Gall(e)ons of electronic ink are then being spilled about general
principles related to the incubator's governance, including how to
find a balance between overwhelming each other with email and yet how
to talk through a set of hard questions to the point where we find
some consensus.

I would go so far as to invite you as to have an itchy trigger finger
on the delete key in your email reader if you don't have the time to
dive into the philosophical and policy discussions but are stil
willing to supervise one or more podlings and maybe even read more

> Karl
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>>> From: Marvin Humphrey <>
>>>To: Joe Schaefer <>
>>>Cc: "" <>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 5:28 PM
>>>Subject: Re: PPMC to IPMC
>>>On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:41:32PM -0800, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>> Taking a larger interest beyond a podling is nice but not required for IPMC
>>>> membership.
>>>+1, not a requirement.
>>>> We certainly don't expect members to do anything like that, so why should
>>>> expect it of non-members?
>>>Let's separate Incubator policy from my advice to Karl and other potential
>>>IPMC aspirants.
>>>Regarding Incubator policy, it may be useful to do something as liberal as
>>>placing PPMC members on the IPMC as soon as we think they can be trusted with
>>>a binding vote for their own podling releases.  That will also give them a
>>>binding vote on other IPMC issues, but will it cause problems?  I dunno.
>> Trust me.  Long experience with this issue tells me it won't cause any problems.
>> People generally stay out of situations they are not familiar with, and adults
>> typically recuse themselves from voting on things where there's an obvious
>> conflict of interest going on.
>>>We've talked about shrinking the IPMC to a core of people who really know and
>>>care about the Incubator, and this goes the opposite direction -- but it does
>>>solve some difficult problems without compromising the ASF's legal chain of
>>>authority over releases.
>> The best kind of oversight is COMPETENT oversight.  People who understand
>> the policy, intend to respect it, and are actually familiar with the podling's
>> software are in the best position to cast binding votes over it.
>>>For individuals who want to be on the IPMC, you will probably get noticed
>>>faster if you contribute to the Incubator as an instititution -- and even
>>>better, you will gain valuable experience regarding community, legal policies
>>>and how the ASF works which will help your podling succeed over the long haul.
>>>So I think it is in the interest of potential candidates to get involved, even
>>>if the IPMC states that it's not a requirement.
>> Again, very nice, but not at all necessary.  Random people running around sticking
>> their fingers in various holes in our oversight woes isn't conducive to sound process.
>> We aim for competent oversight over our podlings, and if there aren't enough
>> mentors available to provide that, let's start sourcing the podling's committers.
>> Preferably starting with RM's who have already successfully managed to release
>> once.
>> It's not exactly rocket science.
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