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From Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
Date Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:53:16 GMT
Let's stop discussing this issue in the abstract then and take
a look at the current set of reports.  Of the ones with signatures
of mentors, I see very little to gripe about- the topics and subjects
are mostly relevant to the podling's progress towards graduation.


Now lets look at the remainder- several projects with no report whatsoever,
and Tashi, which has been incubating since 2008, writes exclusively about
technical issues and really says zilch about their progress towards
graduation.  IMO that project clearly is in dire need of guidance.
What should we do, just pass that unsigned report along to the board
and continue to ignore the podling?



----- Original Message -----
> From: Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
> 
> I'm not worried about a mentor that can't write a decent report. I want 
> a podling that can write a decent report.  I'm much more worried when the 
> mentor can't prod the podling to write a report, and doesn't review it 
> or sign it when they do.  If the podling submits a poor report that is evidence 
> enough that the mentors need a bit of education.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:26 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> 
>>  It's not about blame, it's about tangible, recorded demonstrations 
> of
>>  oversight.  As I said elsewhere we place no conditions on mentors
>>  when they sign up to mentor a podling, and I think that is part
>>  of the problem we face here.  A podling will be able to report about
>>  a poor report from a mentor easily enough, we don't need to police
>>  each other all that much.  We do need to start actively collaborating
>>  tho, and we can't do that without ensuring there's actual 
> participation.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Marcel Offermans <marcel.offermans@luminis.nl>
>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer 
> <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
>>>  Cc: 
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:21 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>> 
>>>  I see your point. I still think that if you read a "bad" 
> report it 
>>>  does not matter who wrote it, in the end you can still blame the 
> mentors because 
>>>  it's their responsibility. Who wrote it is not that relevant to me.
>>> 
>>>  On Jan 10, 2012, at 23:10 , Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  The thing is there is no way to tell whether or not a mentor is
>>>>  even CAPABLE of writing a status report for a podling if the 
> podling
>>>>  is immediately tasked with doing so themselves.  We are in the boat
>>>>  we are in now because we have for too long assumed any member who
>>>>  offered to mentor a podling was ready, able, and willing to do a 
> decent
>>>>  job of it.  Without putting any feedback loops into the system for
>>>>  determining whether mentors are performing their job well we will
>>>>  never be able to move to a system that's both providing proper 
>>>  oversight
>>>>  organizationally and distributing trust to the mentors who are 
> providing 
>>>  it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>  From: Marcel Offermans <marcel.offermans@luminis.nl>
>>>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>  Cc: antelder@apache.org; Joe Schaefer 
> <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
>>>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:03 PM
>>>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Whilst I agree there is value in demonstrating a starting 
> podling what 
>>>  a good 
>>>>>  report should look like by doing it for them, I also strongly 
> believe 
>>>  in 
>>>>>  learning by doing, so I would still propose that a podling has 
> a go at 
>>>  it 
>>>>>  themselves, before having a mentor step in. In the end, this is 
> also a 
>>>  question 
>>>>>  of "mentoring style" and I think we should leave that 
> up to 
>>>  the 
>>>>>  mentors and podlings.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  A mentor should be actively involved in the discussion about 
> the report 
>>>  though, 
>>>>>  ensuring that the end result is good.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Greetings, Marcel
>>>>> 
>>>>>  On Jan 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  I don't know about you, but in the podlings I mentor I 
> am 
>>>  subscribed
>>>>>>  to most if not all of the mailing lists and try to read the 
> bulk of
>>>>>>  it all.  I could easily write status reports for them if it 
> was my
>>>>>>  responsibility to do so, and for the initial 6 months would 
> prefer
>>>>>>  that mentors showed their podlings and their fellow mentors 
> what 
>>>  can
>>>>>>  be done with a properreport before passing that duty along 
> to the 
>>>  PPMC.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>  From: ant elder <ant.elder@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>  Cc: 
>>>>>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:47 PM
>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  I like the idea of mentors being expected to signoff on 
> the 
>>>  wiki just
>>>>>>>  to show that they are paying attention, but i also 
> agree that 
>>>  it might
>>>>>>>  be useful to have along with the poddling reports to 
> have 
>>>  comments
>>>>>>>  from the mentors. So how about doing both? Just extend 
> the 
>>>  mentor
>>>>>>>  signoff section to include comments so a poddling 
> report is the
>>>>>>>  poddling comments, mentor comments about whats going on 
> and 
>>>  what
>>>>>>>  they'd like to see the poddling doing in the next 
> months 
>>>  and a 
>>>>>  signoff
>>>>>>>  from all active mentors.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Or Joe are you saying that we should scrap the poddling 
> 
>>>  comments bit
>>>>>>>  entirely? I think its useful to get a quick overview of 
> whats 
>>>  going on
>>>>>>>  and it gets them used to the TLP board report 
> requirement.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>      ...ant
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Joe Schaefer 
>>>>>  <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> 
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>  Lame.  I would actually like to see mentors WRITING 
> the 
>>>  reports
>>>>>>>>  at least for the first 6 months to a year, then 
> going to 
>>>  sign-off
>>>>>>>>  on the wiki.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>  From: William A. Rowe Jr. 
> <wrowe@rowe-clan.net>
>>>>>>>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>  Cc: Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 1:23 PM
>>>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  On 1/9/2012 11:40 AM, Upayavira wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>     Regarding attrition of mentors, it was 
> discussed 
>>>  having 
>>>>>  mentors
>>>>>>>>>  'sign'
>>>>>>>>>>     the board report for their podling. 
> Could that be 
>>> 
>>>>>  encouraged, and 
>>>>>>>  used
>>>>>>>>>>     as a sign of minimum 'activity' 
> for a 
>>>  mentor?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  How about simply sign off on podling-dev@?  
> Even if it 
>>>  is 
>>>>>  "Thanks 
>>>>>>>  for
>>>>>>>>>  drafting this!  No edits from me."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> 
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