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From Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
Date Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:26:17 GMT
It's not about blame, it's about tangible, recorded demonstrations of
oversight.  As I said elsewhere we place no conditions on mentors
when they sign up to mentor a podling, and I think that is part
of the problem we face here.  A podling will be able to report about
a poor report from a mentor easily enough, we don't need to police
each other all that much.  We do need to start actively collaborating
tho, and we can't do that without ensuring there's actual participation.



----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcel Offermans <marcel.offermans@luminis.nl>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
> 
> I see your point. I still think that if you read a "bad" report it 
> does not matter who wrote it, in the end you can still blame the mentors because 
> it's their responsibility. Who wrote it is not that relevant to me.
> 
> On Jan 10, 2012, at 23:10 , Joe Schaefer wrote:
> 
>>  The thing is there is no way to tell whether or not a mentor is
>>  even CAPABLE of writing a status report for a podling if the podling
>>  is immediately tasked with doing so themselves.  We are in the boat
>>  we are in now because we have for too long assumed any member who
>>  offered to mentor a podling was ready, able, and willing to do a decent
>>  job of it.  Without putting any feedback loops into the system for
>>  determining whether mentors are performing their job well we will
>>  never be able to move to a system that's both providing proper 
> oversight
>>  organizationally and distributing trust to the mentors who are providing 
> it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Marcel Offermans <marcel.offermans@luminis.nl>
>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>  Cc: antelder@apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:03 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>> 
>>>  Whilst I agree there is value in demonstrating a starting podling what 
> a good 
>>>  report should look like by doing it for them, I also strongly believe 
> in 
>>>  learning by doing, so I would still propose that a podling has a go at 
> it 
>>>  themselves, before having a mentor step in. In the end, this is also a 
> question 
>>>  of "mentoring style" and I think we should leave that up to 
> the 
>>>  mentors and podlings.
>>> 
>>>  A mentor should be actively involved in the discussion about the report 
> though, 
>>>  ensuring that the end result is good.
>>> 
>>>  Greetings, Marcel
>>> 
>>>  On Jan 10, 2012, at 22:52 , Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  I don't know about you, but in the podlings I mentor I am 
> subscribed
>>>>  to most if not all of the mailing lists and try to read the bulk of
>>>>  it all.  I could easily write status reports for them if it was my
>>>>  responsibility to do so, and for the initial 6 months would prefer
>>>>  that mentors showed their podlings and their fellow mentors what 
> can
>>>>  be done with a properreport before passing that duty along to the 
> PPMC.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>  From: ant elder <ant.elder@gmail.com>
>>>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>  Cc: 
>>>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:47 PM
>>>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>>>> 
>>>>>  I like the idea of mentors being expected to signoff on the 
> wiki just
>>>>>  to show that they are paying attention, but i also agree that 
> it might
>>>>>  be useful to have along with the poddling reports to have 
> comments
>>>>>  from the mentors. So how about doing both? Just extend the 
> mentor
>>>>>  signoff section to include comments so a poddling report is the
>>>>>  poddling comments, mentor comments about whats going on and 
> what
>>>>>  they'd like to see the poddling doing in the next months 
> and a 
>>>  signoff
>>>>>  from all active mentors.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Or Joe are you saying that we should scrap the poddling 
> comments bit
>>>>>  entirely? I think its useful to get a quick overview of whats 
> going on
>>>>>  and it gets them used to the TLP board report requirement.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     ...ant
>>>>> 
>>>>>  On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Joe Schaefer 
>>>  <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>  Lame.  I would actually like to see mentors WRITING the 
> reports
>>>>>>  at least for the first 6 months to a year, then going to 
> sign-off
>>>>>>  on the wiki.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>  From: William A. Rowe Jr. <wrowe@rowe-clan.net>
>>>>>>>  To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>  Cc: Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk>
>>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 1:23 PM
>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: Small but otherwise happy podlings
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  On 1/9/2012 11:40 AM, Upayavira wrote:
>>>>>>>>    Regarding attrition of mentors, it was discussed 
> having 
>>>  mentors
>>>>>>>  'sign'
>>>>>>>>    the board report for their podling. Could that be 
> 
>>>  encouraged, and 
>>>>>  used
>>>>>>>>    as a sign of minimum 'activity' for a 
> mentor?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  How about simply sign off on podling-dev@?  Even if it 
> is 
>>>  "Thanks 
>>>>>  for
>>>>>>>  drafting this!  No edits from me."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

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