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From Hyrum K Wright <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Bloodhound
Date Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:05:58 GMT
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<> wrote:
> Uh, here's the TRAC License: <>.
> You have to do what it says.  The language is very simple.  So is the Copyright notice.
> If this is the codebase that you propose to be the foundation of Bloodhound development,
I suspect that an SGA (Software Grant Agreement) from Edgewall Software is preferred in order
to have it be licensable by Apache under the ALv2.  If an SGA is possible, it would deal
with the patent issue that has been raised on this thread.  See <>.

"preferred" or "required"?

I'll also note that small bits of the Trac test suite are already
being distributed in ASF releases of Subversion and hosted in our
public repo.  See:

Subversion still maintains the required attribution per the Trac
License, but also adds the ALv2.  This was a point of discussion
during the Subversion incubation, but was vetted and approved and has
been the status quo for over 2 years.

> I have no idea how much the SGA is a requirement for the incubator proposal moving forward.
 Your champion or proposed mentors should know.  I recommend that be figured out ASAP.  How
that will be handled might need to be added to the incubator proposal, also.

What specific questions would you like to see addressed in the proposal?

>  - Dennis
> If you end up needing a plan B, it might be appropriate to move where further development
under the BSD license is possible.  SourceForge might be an useful choice.  SourceForge
offers Trac as an available feature for projects, and it also supports SVN as one of its repository
services.  (I only mention that because I was looking into the SourceForge 2.0 beta recently
and I have some small projects there.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niclas Hedhman []
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 18:38
> To:
> Cc: Mark Struberg; Ian Wild; Greg Stein
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Bloodhound
> I suggest legal-discuss@ is involved to answer it. Although it is Cat
> A license, I don't think it is fully kosher, as we promise that the
> original contributor hasn't submarined any patents, but BSD doesn't
> state this. Maybe it is a tiny point, but more eyes from
> legal-discuss@ won't hurt...

It would surprise me if this question isn't already answered.  In fact, it is:

I humbly submit that reopening the question with legal-discuss@ would
be disrespectful of their time.


>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 6:26 AM, Hyrum K Wright
> <> wrote:
>> I don't know the proper answer to the licensing and patent questions.
>> My understanding (standard caveats apply) is that the BSD is a
>> Category A license, and as software distributed under it may be
>> included in ASF software such as Bloodhound.  I'm unsure what the
>> concern about BSD notices in source file is, nor do I know if such
>> concern is well-founded.
>> -Hyrum
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Niclas Hedhman <> wrote:
>>> SO, IIUIC, the first step is to import TRAC, and we will have
>>> primarily a BSD codebase as the main body of code?
>>> Does this mean that all BSD notices in source files must live in ASF
>>> repository for all eternity, assuming that we are allowed to
>>> sublicense into ALv2 (which I think is no problem)?
>>> And what about the lack of patent license that we offer downstream,
>>> but have not received from upstream?
>>> Cheers
>>> Niclas
>>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 12:14 AM, Mark Struberg <> wrote:
>>>> so this is basically Trac ++ and a fork of Trac ?
>>>> Or is it a completely rewritten new approach?
>>>> just curious :)
>>>> LieGrue,
>>>> strub
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Hyrum K Wright <>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Cc: Ian Wild <>; Greg Stein <>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 4:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: [PROPOSAL] Apache Bloodhound
>>>>> Hello Incubator!
>>>>> WANdisco would like to propose the inclusion of a new project, Apache
>>>>> Bloodhound, to the Incubator.  The proposal has been posted to the
>>>>> wiki[1], and is also included below.  We've privately discussed this
>>>>> project with a number of individuals, but would now like to get the
>>>>> discussion rolling here.  Bloodhound is new effort, based on Trac[2],
>>>>> to provide issue tracking and collaboration tools for developers.
>>>>> We realize the proposal is a work-in-progress, and as such look
>>>>> forward to feedback and discussion.  We hope to attract mentors and
>>>>> other interested parties through the incubation proposal process, and
>>>>> further diversify the community as we move through incubation.  In
>>>>> particular, this project is an opportunity to build a new community
>>>>> around the codebase, and we look forward to doing so at the ASF.
>>>>> -Hyrum
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> [2]
>>>>> = Bloodhound - Collaborative development tools based on Trac =
>>>>> == Abstract ==
>>>>> Bloodhound will be a software development collaboration tool,
>>>>> including issue tracking, wiki and repository browsing.  Essentially
>>>>> an improved distribution of the well-known Trac project, Bloodhound
>>>>> will include the common and useful plugins to enable a more complete
>>>>> distribution than a typical Trac installation.
>>>>> == Proposal ==
>>>>> Bloodhound will be a software development collaboration tool, based on
>>>>> the existing Trac project, which will include a repository browser,
>>>>> wiki, and defect tracker.  In addition to the standard Trac
>>>>> installation, Bloodhound will incorporate a number of popular modules
>>>>> into the core distribution, and include additional improvements
>>>>> developed (as [[|plugins]]) outside the Trac
>>>>> project.
>>>>> == Background ==
>>>>> The [[|Trac project]] is a BSD-licensed
>>>>> collaboration tool used to assist in software development.  It has a
>>>>> wide user base, a pluggable infrastructure, and is generally
>>>>> considered stable.
>>>>> By it's own recognition, however, the development community
>>>>> surrounding Trac has largely dissipated, with little mailing list
>>>>> traffic, and very few commits to the source code repository (see [2]).
>>>>> Private efforts to engage the existing developers in implementing
>>>>> features have been negatively received.  At the same time, other
>>>>> individuals and companies, such as
>>>>> [[|WANdisco]], have expressed interest in
>>>>> helping continue to develop Trac.  These entities would prefer this
>>>>> effort to be at a vendor-neutral location, with the clear process for
>>>>> intellectual property management that comes from the Foundation.  As
>>>>> such, the Apache Software Foundation feels like the best fit for this
>>>>> new project based on Trac.
>>>>> == Rationale ==
>>>>> As discussed earlier, the current Trac development community is small
>>>>> and reluctant to accept outside contributions.  Given the Foundation’s
>>>>> reputation for building and maintaining communities, we feel a new
>>>>> project, based on Trac but incubated under the Apache umbrella, would
>>>>> help re-build the developer community, jump started by developer time
>>>>> donated by WANdisco.  Additionally, as a developer tool, Bloodhound
>>>>> a good fit with other, similarly-focused developer tools at the ASF.
>>>>> Private discussions have shown there is some interest by third-parties
>>>>> to release internal improvements to Trac, and Bloodhound gives them an
>>>>> additional venue to do so.
>>>>> == Initial Goals ==
>>>>> The initial goals for Bloodhound primarily revolve around migrating
>>>>> the existing code base and integrating external features to make the
>>>>> project easy to deploy.  Additional ideas will of course follow, but
>>>>> the following goals are sufficiently difficult to be considered early
>>>>> milestones.
>>>>> Some of the initial goals include:
>>>>> * Migrate the existing BSD-licensed Trac code base to the ASF.
>>>>> * Attract developer and user interest in the new Bloodhound project.
>>>>> * Incorporate externally developed features into the core Bloodhound
>>>>> * Package the most popular plugins into the core project, so
>>>>> installations and administration of Bloodhound becomes dead simple.
>>>>> = Current Status =
>>>>> == Meritocracy ==
>>>>> Although initially corporate-sponsored, any interested developers
>>>>> would be granted commit access.  Even developers employed by the
>>>>> sponsoring companies would be required to demonstrate competency to
>>>>> gain commit privileges.  Individuals with corporate affiliations would
>>>>> understandably be known within the community, but would not have
>>>>> bearing on the granting of commit privileges.
>>>>> == Community ==
>>>>> One of the primary purposes of this proposal is to develop a strong
>>>>> developer community around the Trac code base.  The current developers
>>>>> and supporting institution have moved on to other things, and this has
>>>>> caused stagnation in the existing community.  We want to use the
>>>>> experience of the Incubator PMC, and the incubation process, to reboot
>>>>> the developer community, while at the same time incorporating
>>>>> oft-requested features into the existing product.
>>>>> Building communities carries with it an initial investment, and the
>>>>> corporate sponsors behind this proposal are willing to make that
>>>>> investment in seeing a vibrant and self-sustaining community result
>>>>> from incubation.  We recognize this as something of an experiment, and
>>>>> that incubation is not a guarantee of success and graduation a given.
>>>>> However, we feel that the ASF represents the best opportunity to build
>>>>> the vibrant community that this project needs.
>>>>> == Core Developers ==
>>>>> The initial set of developers will be primarily individuals from
>>>>> WANdisco, and may be augmented with other interested persons we have
>>>>> privately contacted.  This list contains at least one Apache Member,
>>>>> as well as others who have participated in Apache projects in various
>>>>> capacities (patch contributors, bug reports, etc.).  It also includes
>>>>> people who are familiar with open source development, but have not
>>>>> previously participated in Apache projects.
>>>>> Realizing that incubation is an opportunity to grow the community, we
>>>>> plan to make every attempt possible to invite additional developers
>>>>> from the existing Trac user and developer communities, including those
>>>>> involved in plugin development.
>>>>> == Alignment ==
>>>>> Bloodhound aligns well with the Apache Software Foundation.  It makes
>>>>> extensive use of Apache Subversion, and includes tools to browse and
>>>>> interact with Subversion repositories.  As previously mentioned,
>>>>> Bloodhound is primarily a developer-oriented tool, which follows the
>>>>> historical Apache philosophy of providing high-quality developer
>>>>> tools.  Eventually, Bloodhound could become a viable alternative to
>>>>> Jira or Bugzilla for projects hosted at Apache.
>>>>> = Known Risks =
>>>>> This proposal is not without its risks, some of which are outlined below.
>>>>> == Orphaned Projects ==
>>>>> The current Trac project lacks much developer interest.  Although the
>>>>> entities behind this proposal desire to make a viable developer
>>>>> community, there is no guarantee that such a community will develop.
>>>>> Should this happen, there will likely be insufficient heterogeneity in
>>>>> the project to warrant graduation.
>>>>> == Inexperience with Open Source ==
>>>>> The initial groups of developers have extensive experience with open
>>>>> source, primarily with the [[|Apache
>>>>> Subversion]] project.  The target audience for growing the developer
>>>>> community is the current Trac user and developer communities, many
>>>>> members of which are familiar with open source in general.  There may
>>>>> be some learning curve as community members familiarize themselves
>>>>> with the ASF and the Apache Way, including individuals employed
>>>>> specifically to work on the project.
>>>>> == Homogeneous Developers ==
>>>>> The current list of committers are primarily from WANdisco.  One of
>>>>> the key purposes of proposing Bloodhound for incubation is to
>>>>> resurrect a currently-small (~3 key developers, but very few commits
>>>>> per week) development community by attracting and infusing it with new
>>>>> code and new individuals.  The ASF has a well-deserved reputation of
>>>>> fostering and building open source communities, which makes it the
>>>>> ideal location to attempt this community reboot.
>>>>> == Reliance on Salaried Developers ==
>>>>> Most of the initial committers are supported by their employers to
>>>>> work on Bloodhound, and may be assigned to work on other projects in
>>>>> the future.  However, the employers of these salaried individuals have
>>>>> an interest in seeing Bloodhound thrive as a long-term, sustaining
>>>>> project.  WANdisco understands that their employees are acting as
>>>>> individuals when contributing to Apache projects, but has already
>>>>> brought additional staff on board to assist with Bloodhound
>>>>> development.
>>>>> == Relationship with Other Apache Projects ==
>>>>> Bloodhound integrates heavily with Apache Subversion, although that
>>>>> integration is becoming more de-coupled making it possible to replace
>>>>> with other version control systems. Bloodhound optionally runs on
>>>>> Apache httpd.
>>>>> == An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand ==
>>>>> One of the primary motivators in creating the Bloodhound project as
>>>>> part of the Incubator is to leverage the vendor-neutral nature of the
>>>>> Apache Software Foundation.  The ASF has a strong and recognized brand
>>>>> as being a leader in open source, and by hosting Bloodhound at the
>>>>> Foundation, we hope to attract developers to build a viable community
>>>>> for the project.
>>>>> = Initial Source =
>>>>> The original Trac code base has been under development for more than
>>>>> years, though development has become minimal over the past 2 years.
>>>>> We have sync'd the existing Trac repository, including history, and
>>>>> are using it as the basis for Bloodhound.  We also plan to incorporate
>>>>> appropriately-licensed plugins into the core Bloodhound system.
>>>>> == Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan ==
>>>>> The initial source will be from the Trac repository.  Additional
>>>>> functionality may come from private development, and will be folded
>>>>> into the open source version after Bloodhound is loaded in the main
>>>>> ASF repository.  Any relevant Trac-hacks with appropriate licenses may
>>>>> also be migrated.
>>>>> == External Dependencies ==
>>>>> The bulk of the initial code will be from the Trac project, which is
>>>>> licensed under the BSD license.  Bloodhound also relies upon
>>>>> BSD-licensed subcomponents for HTML templating.
>>>>> = Required Resources =
>>>>> == Mailing lists ==
>>>>> The initial set of mailing lists will be:
>>>>> * bloodhound-private (with moderated subscriptions)
>>>>> * bloodhound-dev
>>>>> * bloodhound-commits
>>>>> * bloodhound-user
>>>>> == Subversion Directory ==
>>>>> == Issue Tracking ==
>>>>> Bloodhound would like to self-host its issue tracking, see below.
>>>>> == Other Resources ==
>>>>> In the interests of eating our own dogfood, Bloodhound would like to
>>>>> self-host the issue tracker and related tools. The team will work with
>>>>> Infrastructure to define and manage this configuration.
>>>>> == Initial Committers ==
>>>>> * Mat Booth (mat.booth at wandisco dot com)
>>>>> * Mark Poole (mark at
>>>>> * Hyrum Wright (hyrum.wright at wandisco dot com)
>>>>> * John Chambers (john.chambers at
>>>>> * Gary Martin (gary.martin at
>>>>> == Affiliations ==
>>>>> * Mat Booth, WANdisco
>>>>> * Mark Poole, WANdisco
>>>>> * Hyrum Wright, WANdisco
>>>>> * John Chambers, WANdisco
>>>>> * Gary Martin, WANdisco
>>>>> = Sponsors =
>>>>> == Champion ==
>>>>> Hyrum Wright
>>>>> == Nominated Mentors ==
>>>>> * Hyrum Wright
>>>>> * Greg Stein
>>>>> == Sponsoring Entity ==
>>>>> The Apache Incubator
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>> --
>>> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>>> - New Energy for Java
>>> I live here;
>>> I work here;
>>> I relax here;
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> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> - New Energy for Java
> I live here;
> I work here;
> I relax here;
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