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From Doug Meil <>
Subject Re: Accumulo incubator proposal: Statement of Concern
Date Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:16:26 GMT

Thanks for the feedback folks.

I would caution that it is not possible to simultaneously optimize for
both of these goals...

1)  Community over code
2)  Competition is good

... as both will be lost.  Particularly where the latter contains the
absence of inter-project communication, and competition-at-any-price.

Without communication, there is no community.

I think that the ASF and ASF incubator leadership should consider it a
priority to foster such communication.  And this means asking the
questions I asked before, e.g,. "you guys are trying to do the same thing
as...  Have you talked them?"  Consider it "Open-Source Project


On 9/7/11 3:16 AM, "Alex Karasulu" <> wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Benson Margulies <>
>> Doug Meil,
>> Lots of incubator proposals come from groups of people with little or
>> no prior track record at Apache or in Open Source at all. The point of
>> incubation is to give them a chance to either learn how to be an
>> Apache TLP -- or not. We do not tell people 'go away, you haven't
>> enough pedigree.' Mentors have more work to do when the nucleus of a
>> podling is comparatively inexperienced.
>Well put! They have some community skills to develop but that does not
>mean they don't deserve a chance. Although I snipped the paragraph you
>included regarding the nature of government institutions, I think this
>is a great opportunity for the Apache Way to start infusing into these
>kinds of organization. Even if the polling terminates before
>graduation there's a lot to be learned from the effort.
>> Further, I don't know of any policy of the ASF in general, or the
>> incubator in particular, that insists that a group of itch-scratchers
>> make any particular attempt to make any particular gesture towards any
>> particular existing community as a prerequisite of incubation. Five of
>> my friends and I could turn up here tomorrow with a proposal to fork
>> an existing TLP to scratch our particular itch, and, so far as I can
>> tell, the incubator PMC would evaluate the proposal on its merits,
>> independent of the fork.
>Yep, the point is community, over code. If Project X has a dominant
>group (say all from the same company) suppressing valid technical
>advances other than those in line with their agenda, then the
>suffering minority can choose to fork and propose a new community for
>incubation. Project X and Project Y can co-exist at Apache. Regardless
>of our project nomenclature, I don't see incubator proposals as
>proposals for projects but rather proposals for new communities. The
>substrate bringing the community together is the code.
>Forking code bases and incubating parallel communities is not a bad
>thing: it provides a means to release pressure. I've seen some
>negative corporate driven dynamics in various new projects. I've made
>some light comments to improve productivity without any kind of
>aggressive push yet have been confronted with a negative, "we don't do
>it that way, we've done it this way, our way, for years." I'm appalled
>by the code quality at the same time but that's a different matter and
>I'm not going to reopen that extremely long thread we had in the past.
>If those being pushed away continue to be pushed away then the right
>to fork and start a new community presents an excellent opportunity
>for the oppressed voices.
>Everybody deserves a chance. AFAIC I don't care of this proposal is a
>complete fork of HBase itself. If they want to build a community in
>line with the Apache Way then we welcome them to try. If they fail to
>meet the requirements then that's no skin off our back.
>> You are of course entitled to your opinions and concerns, but if you
>> think that there is some policy that supports the position that PMC
>> members should vote -1 on this proposal due to these issues I wish you
>> would cite it.
>SNIP ...
>Best Regards,
>-- Alex
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