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From Niclas Hedhman <>
Subject Re: Question to TDF and its community
Date Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:47:12 GMT
Thank you both for (what I perceive as) balanced responses, without
all the noise out there.

For the record; I am opposing this contribution and will vote -1,
unless there is a clear indication that TDF/LO is behind it 100% and
the two projects are on a trajectory of a merge. I don't want to see
Apache involved in prolonging or extending this fork. If there is no
way to unite OpenOffice and LibreOffice into a single offering for end
users, please take this problem elsewhere.
I understand (and TDF should too) that companies sometimes can't or
won't work with copyleft software, but I also understand the idealism
from copyleft enthusiasts. The question the copyleft people should ask
themselves; Who is the enemy? MS Office is the one that will benefit
from the divergence. Is the ideological high ground more important, or
is market share more important? If the former, go with your license
choice, if latter, you should consider moving to ALv2 and join forces
right now.

To the Incubator PMC; I hope I am not alone in thinking that bringing
this to Apache without TDF/LO on-board is really BAD for Apache's
reputation in the larger software community. I urge everyone to think
this through carefully, and not blindly think it is Ok just because
Jim, Greg, Sam and other heavy-weighters here are the main supporters
of this.

Thank you

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Florian Effenberger
<> wrote:
> Hi Niclas,
> Niclas Hedhman wrote on 2011-06-06 18.12:
>> I was on a long flight and came back to an immense number of mails
>> here and elsewhere on this topic, so please bear with me if this has
>> been brought up before, by someone else.
> hope you had a safte trip, and I can feel with you - I had several hundred
> mails just over the weekend. :-)
>> I vaguely recall the fork of OOo into LibreOffice, and if memory
>> serves me right it was due to escape Oracle's governance/influence, or
>> something to that extent.
> I tried to sum-up the situation yesterday in these mails and associated
> links - hope that helps for some inside view:
>> Was it already at that time known that Oracle was going with a liberal
>> license, and the fork was then a choice based in the ideological
>> differences in licensing?
> Very briefly, the TDF was, among other things, created because Oracle didn't
> say *anything*. The move to another license was a surprise to us as well, so
> our decision has not been based on license ideology, but rather as we wanted
> to provide a good home for our community. Oracle wasn't responsive at all on
> so many questions.
>> If it was not, how would the people who forked then have reacted if
>> Oracle did then (pre-fork) what they are doing now?
> It is for sure hard to say, but I (personally) am sure things would have
> happened different. Having OOo with a foundation is part of the project's
> mission statement since day one, since the announcement in June 2000 (!).
> It's hard to say if the community had instanly agreed to a move to ASF. But,
> again, TDF has not been created out of licensing issues, but rather as
> wanted to have a safe and stable home for the community. Based on the lack
> of feedback from Oracle on so many important questions, there was no other
> choice left.
> And now, that we created everything, Oracle acts - something we had wished
> for much earlier, ideally before September 28th, 2010.
> But shall we now join the ASF proposal, re-creating everything we already
> did twice (once at OOo, then at TDF) just because Oracle finally made it, or
> doesn't it make more sense to work in the environment we created
> specifically for the needs of our community?
> I posted it in another message, but it's important, so I repeat: The TDF was
> created with support of *ALL* community council members who have been not
> employed by Oracle, and most co-leads and project leads joined us. I think
> this speaks for itself.
>> Finally, do you (TDF) thinks it is better that Oracle gives the
>> codebase, trademarks and other IP-rights to IBM than to Apache? The
>> way I read the situation, that is the alternative available most
>> likely to happen in that case, possibly as a fully internal project.
>> Giving OOo to TDF is something Oracle simply can't do, there is likely
>> a promise to IBM...
> My personal point was not so much about the software grant. If I understood
> this right, it exists independent from the incubation process or result. My
> point was that it is a waste of time and energy and split efforts, when
> there is a second project set-up.
> So, easily spoken:
> If ASF accepts the software grant, that's better than if it doesn't accept
> it. :)
> However, does this really need a project where people have to come up with
> infrastructure, marketing, QA etc., or wouldn't it make sense to join
> forces?
> Florian
> --
> Florian Effenberger <>
> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> Skype: floeff | Twitter/ @floeff
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Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer - New Energy for Java

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