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From Benson Margulies <>
Subject Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Date Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:16:04 GMT
I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.

My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark aside, my
primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've registered
these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in the
discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this should be
enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish that they
would open another thread in which they formally propose to impose
limits on the use of these technologies.

My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's. The point of
the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs as soon as
possible. Real Apache projects use real-time communications, within
the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's policies. _Use_ of
these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit. _Misuse_ is. So
podlings should start using it while they are podlings and can be

Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first two weeks?'

Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal opinion, that
the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the close
collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to make that go
away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude people
based on time zone or working style, but it might also allow new
people who are not part of the pre-existing founding community to get
into the thick of things more quickly.

As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some risk here
that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that will need
to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me out to dry
here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I hear you
that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have community-management
risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse them.'

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <> wrote:
> Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early... Comparing the
> behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings seems
> disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile drivers drive
> with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you encourage or
> allow those with learner's permits to do?
> On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
>> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
>> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
>> go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication.  Quick
>> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
>> more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
>> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion.  Simple misunderstandings
>> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days.  And the sense
>> of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
>> more so on a phone call.  These things all help move a project forward and
>> keep communities together.
>> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
>> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
>> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
>> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
>> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug.  IMO,
>> we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
>> or not to do it at all.
>> Thanks,
>> --Glen
>> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
>>> breathing room on this subject.
>>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
>>> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
>>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
>>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
>>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
>>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
>>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
>>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
>>> of someone off-time-zone.
>>> --benson
>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <> wrote:
>>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>>>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>>>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to
communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other
ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it
and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being
seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>>>> which is...
>>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person).
>>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the
list for
>>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no
>>>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -g
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested
>>>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting
the call
>>>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to
the project
>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass
my email
>>>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio
into email.
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable
>>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring
folks to
>>>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather
than reading a
>>>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the
general list
>>>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going
somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE
people involved :).
>>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>>>> <>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable,
thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending,
and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice,
actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards
(I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the
demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem
in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for
yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I
also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded
ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did
is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice.
Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL
on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar
call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance
purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire
call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure
if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated,
it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community
Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn:
>>>>>>>>>> - Blog:
>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance
you must keep
>>>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order
to call yourself a
>>>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing
anything less
>>>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>>>> 408 276-5638
>>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>> 408 276-5638
>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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