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From Craig L Russell <Craig.Russ...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: Insanity. Apache Incubator should be about education (was: [PROPOSAL][VOTE] Subversion)
Date Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:12:14 GMT
Hi Greg,

I'm afraid that you have totally mistranslated my message and I have  
no idea why.

I'm not trying to pick a fight.

I'm trying to be reasonable.

I don't perceive your reaction as positive.

I'm not going to continue this discussion until you have something  
concrete to discuss. I voted to accept Subversion into the incubator.  
Your turn.


On Nov 8, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Greg Stein wrote:

> The Apache Incubator is about EDUCATION. It is about TEACHING podlings
> how to work here at Apache.
> It is not about making podlings thoughtlessly follow checklists.
> It is about TEACHING them what are the important aspects of
> development at Apache. About SHOWING them each of the items to be
> aware of.
> It is not about blind adherence to rules and procedure without regard
> to the podling's experience.
> It is about LEARNING who the podling is, what they do, what they have
> done, and what they are capable of, and producing a TEACHING
> experience for that podling so that they can be an effective and
> proper project here at the ASF.
> ---
> I was thinking, "hey. no problem. we can go a bit out of our way and
> produce a release tuned for the Incubator needs" and made a
> suggestion. That didn't satisfy some people, so further requirements
> were thrown in. "hmm", I thought, "well... that shouldn't be too much
> more of a burden".
> And then I received Craig's email below, and it brought me back to
> sanity. I had been forced off the path, and now realize just how crazy
> it is.
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 20:19, Craig L Russell  
> <> wrote:
>> ...
>> As I thought I said earlier, *any* release that has proper Apache  
>> packaging,
>> licensing, and notices is fine with me. We've had this discussion  
>> in the
>> incubator before, for similar reasons, and I think there is  
>> consensus that a
>> formal review of a podling release is a reasonable gate for  
>> graduation. No
>> one needs to believe that the release is stable, tested, reliable,  
>> etc.; it
>> just needs to be reviewed.
> Please let me translate:
> "ANY release is fine, even if that release DOES NOT satisfy the
> project's ESTABLISHED LEVELS OF QUALITY. Shoot. All we want is
> *something*. Oh, and since it has completely inferior quality, it
> doesn't even have to be distributed! See how easy that is! Oh, never
> mind, that if we don't put it into the regular distribution channels,
> and don't make the regular announcements, then YOU'RE NOT DOING A REAL
> Nope. No way.
> The Subversion developers have years of experience releasing code here
> at Apache. Personally, I've been involved in releases of httpd and apr
> for the past ELEVEN years. Then we can talk about the additional
> years/decades of experience brought by Sander, Justin and DLR. Oh, and
> did I mention that Garrett was the VP of APR? That he was on the hook
> for making releases here at Apache?
> If a relatively new committer on the APR project wanted to make a
> release, then they would get handheld by the old-timers. They would
> make mistakes, but those would be caught before final release. That
> newbie does not come here and subject themselves to the oversight of
> the Incubator PMC. They are subject to the APR PMC itself. It makes no
> sense to apply hand-holding to a project that already has old-timers.
> Forget the hand-holding, and TEACH the arriving project about the
> overall guidelines. Point them at the ASF's release guidelines, maybe
> note where there are differences from the existing guidelines, and
> then let the PMC apply the correct oversight.
> If there are no old-timers, or if the project wants to make a release
> *while* in the Incubator? Then sure... apply the release guidelines.
> But applying the thumbscrews now is no indicator of future compliance.
> At the ASF, we make the PMCs responsible. *LET* them be responsible.
> The suggestion of a sub-par release, that should be hidden from the
> public is just ridiculous on the face of it. It teaches the incoming
> podling several things:
> * there are people who follow rules rather than solving a problem
> * you will want to route around those people, which means politicking
> * satisfying a checklist is more important than teaching
> I don't want to see those principles taught to Subversion. I don't
> want to see those taught to ANY podling.
> The Incubator PMC is here to TEACH podlings. Stop and think before
> attempting to apply "rules and procedures".
> -g
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System
408 276-5638
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

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