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From Niclas Hedhman <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Aries incubator for Enterprise OSGi
Date Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:05:20 GMT
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Karl Pauls<> wrote:

> Where in the above "but educating incoming people via contributions
> and meritocracy to an existing project is not some shortcut" do you
> find anything that would imply that the idea is to just accept a large
> number of people into a TLP?

Not sure what got you off, but if you want trial;

Incubator's Evidence A; 9 people on the roster are not ASF folks.

Incubator's Evidence B; Someone said that commit rights are needed for
practical reasons.

Incubator's Evidence C; Richard is contesting Dims' question "Why
should we bypass the Incubator?" from the "Choices List", with a
motivation that this can happen at Felix.

I leave it to the jury to draw the conclusion and not repeat myself.

> I think that we at Felix never did just
> vote in people on the basis "they will create...". Sometimes we do
> accept people new to the ASF on the basis "they donated..." but only
> if we are talking about individual (i.e., 1 or 2) contributors which
> either have been around for  a while or had somebody on the PMC who
> did speak up for them personally.

I am not referring to the past...

>> Hence, the group's decision to come to Incubator is a correct one.
> And nobody has been questioning that as far as I can see.
> This is different from saying that the group's
> decision to come to Incubator is an incorrect one...

I said it was a correct one!

>> Where it graduates to is a different story, and I can leave that
>> question for later. And the Felix community is encouraged to follow
>> and participate the Aries effort.
> As I'm sure at least some if not all of us will. The has never been a
> question either imo. The question in this regard was and is purely to
> what extend Felix people interested in the OSGi EE spec
> implementations only have to get involved in the (more general) Aries
> project and how quickly OSGi EE spec implementations can be released
> as none incubator artifacts.

Isn't it very simple? Work with the people over the year or two the
Incubation is bound to take, and influence them to understand what you
think is the best direction. Put that good Felix vibes in place and
make parts of the project to naturally graduate to Felix.

> And one more time (just in case it was missed earlier): let me point
> out that nobody is talking about Aries as a Felix "incubator" project
> nor (at least at this point in time) about a possible subproject of
> Felix after graduation. We are only talking about the OSGi EE spec
> implementations that are part of the proposed Aries scope.

Well, Felix is free to implement whatever specifications it wants. The
Incubator couldn't care less. So the issue is bigger than that. It is
about community. Felix want to 'adopt' people who wants to work on
these specs, and such 'adoption' may become an Incubator issue if it
is "as is the case" a whole bunch of people with ASF experience. If
you contest that let's say Apache Geronimo or Apache Cocoon are not
"allowed" to implement OSGi specs and that those efforts are the
"monopoly" of Felix, then you are on thin ice, as that is definitely
against the spirit of ASF. You can only influence them to move their
effort to Felix, but it is not a given. Unfortunately, the Felix
community has been coming on quite strongly and antagonistic, so there
is a lot of social skills required to mend that, but given the time
available, I don't see a real problem.

Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer - New Energy for Java

I  live here;
I  work here;
I relax here;

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