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From Guillaume Nodet <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Aries incubator for Enterprise OSGi
Date Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:29:51 GMT
We have in this proposal a lot of people who are not felix committers and
who are not even apache committers at all.

They want to work on some code and create a community around it.  The way
the ASF works means that the incubator is the right place to do so.  The
only other solution is to develop it in a closed source environment and
submit it at Apache when it's done, and i really don't think it's a good
idea, given the willingness to do it in open source.
The blueprint implementation has been developped so far inside the Geronimo
TLP, part of the reason is that some of the people working on it were not
felix committers, so it was way easier to work there instead of contributing
patches until getting committership.    It is very difficult to commit to
work on a new implementation of anything when you don't even have commit
priviledges.  It's ok for patches, but not for a new dev.   That's what we
have here.   We have people here wanting to work on some new OSGi spec
implementation, and the only way for them to do so at Apache in to go into
the incubator.

Even, if Aries was to compete against Felix in any way, it's not a good
enough argument.  We already have multiple projects in the ASF that do have
overlap as it was pointed already multiple times in this thread: mutliple
REST implementations, multiple JAX-WS implementations, etc...  But the Aries
podling does not aim to even provide alternative implementation to what
Felix already has, it's goal is to create a community with new people who
want to work on that and deliver both implementations of new OSGi specs
(such as blueprint and subsystems / applications, jpa ...) and also
additional extensions (such as blueprint custom namespaces for transactions,

For the independance, the only real place I know which provides OSGi
components, not tainted with a given framework are SpringSource (though it's
open source, the community is not really open) and OPS4J, but I do think
it's a different discussion.

I restate that the goal of the Aries proposal is to foster a community
around some new code implementing some OSGi specs.  And I don't think we can
do that inside an existing TLP, as we have non apache committers that want
to create this code.  That's what the incubator has been created for.

Last, accepting to create a podling does not mean the final destination of
the podling is defined yet.   Aries could become either a TLP, a Felix
subproject, or be split across the two of them.  The one that makes the most
sense should prevail at graduation time.  By the time Aries is ready to
graduate, the discussion about it's final destination will be held.  And
that's where what you say will make sense and where your vote needs to be

I really do understand your concerns (even if I don't share them), but now
is not the time to vote -1.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 16:30, Richard S. Hall <> wrote:

> I will try to keep this short.
> The OSGi Service Platform is composed of the core and compendium specs. The
> EEG specs are not in any way special and will ultimately end up as part of
> the compendium spec. Apache Felix was incubated to build a community at
> Apache around implementing the OSGi specs.
> Now we are being told that this mission is too tainted because we implement
> the framework spec, which is part of the core spec. I find this unfathomable
> given the nature of OSGi and the efforts to which the Felix community goes
> to be good OSGi citizens...we even allow for competing implementations
> within our community.
> It is also particularly odd, since the Equinox and Knopflerfish communities
> are in the same situation, implementing both core and compendium specs with
> their frameworks largely synonymous with their project name.
> I am not naive enough to expect this discussion to change much, since I
> imagine there has already been a fair amount of political calculation around
> this proposal, otherwise the Felix community in general would have been
> engaged earlier.
> So, here's my vote:
>   * -1 for the portion of the proposal creating yet another community
>     for implementing OSGi specs at Apache since the Felix community
>     would happily welcome more contribution (just like recently
>     occurred with ServiceMix members being accepted as Felix
>     committers and PMC members for the Karaf subproject)
>   * +1 for the rest of the proposal to explore how to build an
>     enterprise component model on OSGi and the other non-spec related
>     topics.
> -> richard
> On 9/1/09 22:53, Kevan Miller wrote:
>> On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Richard S. Hall wrote:
>>  On 9/1/09 13:59, Martin Cooper wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Richard S. Hall<>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> I'm not sure I understand the issue here. Whether Aries becomes its
>>>> own TLP, or a sub-project of Felix or some other TLP, isn't relevant
>>>> until the project is ready to exit incubation. Why does it warrant
>>>> such apparently intense discussion before the project is even accepted
>>> We are actually discussing something else. We are discussing the scope of
>>> the proposal, which includes hosting OSGi standard service implementations,
>>> which is part of Felix' scope.
>>> If we are developing standard OSGi services within Apache, then Felix
>>> provides an enthusiastic community to do this and there is no need to start
>>> another incubator project for such a purpose. On the other hand, stuff like
>>> "a set of pluggable Java components enabling an enterprise OSGi application
>>> programming model" makes perfect sense to be incubated.
>> Thanks for the clarification... So, your issue is mainly with "It is a
>> goal of the Aries project to provide a natural home for open source
>> implementations of current and future OSGi EEG specifications..."?
>> Personally, I tend to think of Felix in terms of OSGi Core Platform. I
>> certainly hadn't expected it to be the source for all OSGi standard
>> implementations from Apache -- not for implementations of Enterprise Expert
>> Group specs, anyway. I'm sure there are flaws with my perceptions...
>> So, we have a group that is interested in working on an enterprise OSGi
>> application programming model at Apache (including implementations of at
>> least some EEG specifications). An incubator project would seem to be an
>> excellent place for this work to start. Interested Felix community members
>> would certainly be able to join this effort.
>> It then becomes a question of, assuming successful incubation, where does
>> the community graduate to? TLP, Felix subproject(s), or elsewhere. All
>> successful outcomes, IMO.
>> --kevan
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Guillaume Nodet
Open Source SOA

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