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From "Richard S. Hall" <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Aries incubator for Enterprise OSGi
Date Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:49:10 GMT
On 9/3/09 14:37, Ian Robinson wrote:
> The discussion on this part of the proposal reflects the origins of it 
> - people with an interest in AppServers and integration runtimes that 
> are looking to the new EEG specs to provide additional capability in 
> their world so that existing applications can begin to take advantage 
> of OSGi with minimum barrier to entry. There will be tensions in 
> implementing the specs to work in a way that reflects how these apps 
> are built today vs how we'd start afresh given that opportunity. When 
> the question "why do we need to accomodate the baggage of XYZ in the 
> servlet/JNDI/JTA/JMX/JPA/... spec comes up it will be the AppServer 
> and integration runtime folks who have the need for accomodating the 
> quirkier corners of "legacy" Java EE behaviour. They are going to have 
> a perspective that is a little different from one whose success 
> criteria is OSGi spec compliance without a need to additionally 
> accomodate some of the warts, or integrate with some of the other 
> features, of Java EE. Given this slightly different perspective (and 
> the warts) it is perhaps understandable that a community with this 
> interest might see value in developing its own culture within the laws 
> of the (Apache) land, while living in peace with its neighbours.

Agreed it is important goal for your spec impls to support legacy, but 
you seem to have some misconception about the amount of top-down control 
exerted on Felix subprojects. Each subproject is pretty much free to do 
whatever it wants as far as the implementation approach is concerned, 
which is why we allow competing implementations within Felix.

-> richard

> Ian Robinson
> Richard S. Hall wrote:
>> There was no attempt to contact the Felix PMC in general that I am 
>> aware and I certainly didn't know about it in advance.
>> And there seems to be a continued attempt to construe my original 
>> criticisms as "all of Aries should go into Felix".
>> I, personally, do not believe that all of Aries should go into Felix, 
>> I too think it should have its own identity. I was always only ever 
>> referring to the independent OSGi spec implementations. I was arguing 
>> that Felix is a good place to work on them, since it is part of what 
>> it is trying to achieve.
>> Further, I don't really understand the implication that somehow the 
>> burden is now on the Felix community to go and contribute to Aries on 
>> OSGi spec implementations just because of this proposal, when there 
>> was no attempt to work with the Felix community on creating OSGi spec 
>> implementations in the first.
>> The only conclusions I see being drawn by people who have invested 
>> very little in Felix is that we should dismantle the Felix charter so 
>> that we can accommodate the fact that some people don't want to play 
>> with us.
>> At that rate, I stand by my previous "vote" and otherwise people can 
>> do whatever they want in Aries.
>> -> richard
>> On 9/3/09 13:23, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>> Kevan,
>>> Was a contact with Felix made prior to dropping the proposal here? I 
>>> got the
>>> impression that wasn't the case, which I find surprising... If I am 
>>> wrong,
>>> what was the meat of such?
>>> I'm also less happy with the rhetoric here repeated over and over, 
>>> seemingly
>>> uninterested in discussion of reaching a solution everyone can 
>>> accept. (From
>>> both camps, btw)
>>> -- Niclas
>>> On Sep 4, 2009 12:53 AM, "Kevan Miller"<>  wrote:
>>> On Sep 3, 2009, at 12:53 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:>  On Thu, Sep 3, 
>>> 2009 at
>>> 3:19 AM, William A. Ro...
>>> Totally agree. Had certainly hoped that Felix committers would be 
>>> interested
>>> in joining...
>>> --kevan
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