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From Ralph Goers <>
Subject Re: Diversity as an insurance policy (Was: [VOTE] Graduation of Apache Pivot)
Date Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:32:32 GMT

On Aug 5, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:

> On Aug 5, 2009, at 2:00 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> Hi,
>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:39 AM, Ralph Goers< 
>> > wrote:
>>> Using these projects as an example is perhaps not the best from a  
>>> community
>>> perspective because Ceki has no intention of running them like  
>>> Apache
>>> projects. But even if he did, by these standards the projects  
>>> might never
>>> make it out of the incubator. Even if those of us who would like  
>>> them had
>>> commit rights I can guarantee that 95% of the commits would still  
>>> be Ceki's.
>> I don't see it as a problem if the vast majority of commits comes  
>> from
>> one person (or company) as long as the community operates normally
>> *and* there are others who won't have to start learning how to build
>> the codebase and do an "svn commit" if the key developer leaves.
> You won't find the second part solely from the commit log. I would  
> expect mentors to be monitoring the dev list. If it is filled with  
> "can you fix this?" then there is a problem. But if it also has "why  
> did you do this?", "can we do this?", "I don't understand this  
> commit" type messages then I expect the second concern is adequately  
> addressed. But you can't determine that from raw statistics.
>> That's why I measure the "three independent committers" criteria by
>> looking at the commit log instead of the asf-authorization file. And
>> I'm not asking much, just a few code commits in the past few months  
>> is
>> good enough for me.
>> That's the criteria that I held Sling against, and that's also what's
>> currently keeping UIMA from graduating (and apparently also for  
>> over a
>> year before I signed up to help them). If the consensus is that this
>> is a bit too hard a requirement, then I'll be happy to bring UIMA up
>> for graduation in the next few months.
> I'm suggesting that while that criteria makes sense for someone not  
> involved in a project, it isn't necessarily the best way to  
> determine how healthy the community is.  If mentors are mentoring  
> then we should give heavy weight to their recommendation and  
> judgment with respect to graduation. If a mentor needs these kinds  
> of statistics to tell him/her whether the project is healthy then I  
> am very concerned.
> Ralph

I should also clarify. Some projects will never be ready to stand on  
their own as a TLP. Sanselan moved to Commons for just this reason.  
I'm not sure that Commons is the best home for every project in this  
position, but as part of the graduation recommendation mentors should  
identify this. If the only concern over a community is its size (but  
they clearly understand the Apache way of doing things) then  
graduation as a subproject makes complete sense to me and we should  
actively look for the right TLP to move it to.


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