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From <>
Subject AW: [PROPOSAL] Empire-db
Date Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:49:32 GMT
I'm agreeing with Rainer. I often debate with my colleagues of the achitecture unit about the
benefits of Empire-db. Mostly they agree with me, but they also mention the lack of some features
and integration with other frameworks. E.g. they're asking for Spring support (transaction
management), caching possibilities or "Java-Object-Model" generators from existing database

So, I think there are challenges awaiting the project. And only a powerful community around
the Empire-db project can handle these challenges under the patronage of ASF.

Best regards,
Manuel Gamerdinger

-----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Rainer Döbele [] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Juni 2008 22:20
Betreff: Re: [PROPOSAL] Empire-db

Referring to:

Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> I find this alarming: when there are no new challenges awaiting the 
> project, why join Apache? The code is stable and mature, you can just 
> leave it at There doesn't seem to be a plan other than "let's 
> join Apache and hope the community grows automatically". If the 
> current core developers don't have challenges for the project, how 
> would the community grow?

I feel a little misunderstood here. Mature does not mean finished. We can think of a lot of
improvements that we just did't have the demand for yet. And we cannot implement new features
just for the sake of it. For example there are currently only four DBMS supported by Empire-db:
Oracle, SQL-Server, MySQL and HSQLDB. We neither have the demand nor the expertise to support
other systems, but other people might have. This is a good entry point for other developers
to join in the development process. There is also demand for more in-depth work in the drivers
e.g. to provide better support for stored procedures or DBMS specific features.

But most of all, we see Empire-db as more than just a DB layer. The true benefit comes from
utilizing its metadata services in the presentation layer. With our Stuts2 extensions we show
one possible solution how this can be achieved - limited to be used in conjunction with Struts2
of course. A similar thing can possibly be done for JSF, Wicket or others. And it's certainly
also feasible for rich client user interfaces. This is not a trivial task and requires a sound
understanding of the corresponding presentation layer framework. We can only provide the vision,
but it takes some experts and a strong community to make it reality.

BTW: we are currently working on a new release that will allow the definition of metadata
for non relational data objects like data from flat files or Web-Services in a similar manner
in order to provide a uniform client level access for data and metadata. Any help with this
is deeply appreciated.

> I'm not convinced yet that incubating at Apache is the best thing for 
> empire-db. I think that seeking out new ideas, users and (future) 
> committers for the project is the highest priority. Of course this can 
> be done whilest incubating, but having incubator plastered all over 
> the project won't attract more users or developers.
> Some mild marketing such as posting an article on javalobby
> ( or to get some publicity will help 
> the project more than becoming an Apache project.

Posting articles on javalobby or is certainly a good idea. But isn't this
another thing that a community is good for? I will certainly support anyone who is planning
on doing so.

Overall I am not convinced that leaving he project on and writing a view articles will
really bring the project forward. IMO the ASF is the right platform. But of course I respect
your opinion.


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