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From "Rainer Doebele" <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Empire-db
Date Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:24:38 GMT

Referring to:

Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> I find this alarming: when there are no new challenges awaiting the
> project, why join Apache? The code is stable and mature, you can just
> leave it at There doesn't seem to be a plan other than "let's
> join Apache and hope the community grows automatically". If the
> current core developers don't have challenges for the project, how
> would the community grow?

I feel a little misunderstood here. Mature does not mean finished. We can
think of a lot of improvements that we just did’t have the demand for yet.
And we cannot implement new features just for the sake of it. For example
there are currently only four DBMS supported by Empire-db: Oracle,
SQL-Server, MySQL and HSQLDB. We neither have the demand nor the expertise
to support other systems, but other people might have. This is a good entry
point for other developers to join in the development process. There is also
demand for more in-depth work in the drivers e.g. to provide better support
for stored procedures or DBMS specific features.

But most of all, we see Empire-db as more than just a DB layer. The true
benefit comes from utilizing its metadata services in the presentation
layer. With our Stuts2 extensions we show one possible solution how this can
be achieved - limited to be used in conjunction with Struts2 of course. A
similar thing can possibly be done for JSF, Wicket or others. And it’s
certainly also feasible for rich client user interfaces. This is not a
trivial task and requires a sound understanding of the corresponding
presentation layer framework. We can only provide the vision, but it takes
some experts and a strong community to make it reality.

BTW: we are currently working on a new release that will allow the
definition of metadata for non relational data objects like data from flat
files or Web-Services in a similar manner in order to provide a uniform
client level access for data and metadata. Any help with this is deeply

> I'm not convinced yet that incubating at Apache is the best thing for
> empire-db. I think that seeking out new ideas, users and (future)
> committers for the project is the highest priority. Of course this can
> be done whilest incubating, but having incubator plastered all over
> the project won't attract more users or developers.
> Some mild marketing such as posting an article on javalobby
> ( or to get some publicity will help
> the project more than becoming an Apache project.

Posting articles on javalobby or is certainly a good idea.
But isn’t this another thing that a community is good for? I will certainly
support anyone who is planning on doing so.

Overall I am not convinced that leaving he project on and writing a
view articles will really bring the project forward. IMO the ASF is the
right platform. But of course I respect your opinion.


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