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From "Jean T. Anderson" <>
Subject Re: PPMC guidance on new committers
Date Wed, 30 May 2007 15:11:36 GMT
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Hi Carl,
> On May 30, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Carl Trieloff wrote:
>> One more question on this topic as I have also seen differing views 
>> from different members of the Incubator PMC on:  "Who can and who  can
>> not send the account setup mail to root?"
>> Given each new committer vote will have 3 PMC votes, why does a 
>> mentor have to send the account setup to root? Why can't the mail  to
>> root just contain a link to the vote result with 3 PMC members  on it
>> from the general list?
> This is a question that I believe only infrastructure can answer. The 
> issue is that right now, "root" has to respond only to emails from  PMC
> chairs, and it's easy to verify that it's really the PMC chair  sending
> the request.

In the general PMC case, "root" responds to requests from PMC members:
"The project PMC needs to send an email to root at requesting
a new account to be created" [1]. It says "project PMC" not "project PMC

But I think the issue is that PPMCs aren't real PMCs, so for the
Incubator the request should come from a mentor.



>> Some PMC members have the view that any PPMC member should be able  to
>> send the account setup to root to learn the system, others say  it has
>> to be a mentor. Cliff has kindly taken care of most of these  mail for
>> us so far so this is more theoretical, however having  clarity on this
>> in the document would also be good as I have  wondered about the
>> reasoning behind this practice. If the mail to  root has to be cc-ed
>> to general list and PPMC  and has 3 PMC votes  on it then it would
>> seem to me that it could be send by anyone.
> If anyone can send the request, then "root" has to do more work by 
> verifying the vote thread, following the link provided in the  message,
> to make sure that the request is valid.
> I agree that it's better for the PPMC members themselves to be able  to
> make the request to root, but I'd have to leave it up to  infrastructure
> to decide if they can handle it.
> Craig
>> Carl.
>> Craig L Russell wrote:
>>> Having seen this identical discussion at least half a dozen times, 
>>> I've committed changes to the guides/ppmc document removing the 
>>> distracting (P) from the discussion on new committers.
>>> The new text says
>>> Only votes cast by Incubator PMC members are binding. If the vote  is
>>> positive, and the contributor accepts the responsibility of a 
>>> committer for the project, the contributor formally becomes an 
>>> Apache committer. An Incubator PMC member should then follow the 
>>> documented procedures to complete the process, and CC both the 
>>> Incubator PMC and the PPMC when sending the necessary e-mails to  root.
>>> I included the redundant "Incubator" in "Incubator PMC" simply to 
>>> reinforce Noel's comment that PMC means Incubator PMC.
>>> Craig
>>> On May 29, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> Yoav Shapira wrote:
>>>>> I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed committer's
>>>>> contributions.
>>>> +1 != +0
>>>>> I always thought (and the documentation at
>>>>> says PPMC votes are
>>>>> binding.
>>>> It says (P), and the (P) clearly does not belong.  Notice that 
>>>> elsewhere it
>>>> properly says PPMC, with no (), and the places that are wrong  were
>>>> PMC to
>>>> which someone added (P).  Likewise "IPMC" should simply be PMC.  
>>>> There is
>>>> only one PMC: the Incubator PMC.
>>>> I don't know how to say this more clearly.  The PPMC is not a 
>>>> recognized
>>>> entity in the ASF Bylaws.  The PMC is the legal entity, and only 
>>>> PMC votes
>>>> count in any ASF project.  PPMC members should still vote, as can 
>>>> other
>>>> members of the community, but as a legal matter, only PMC votes  are
>>>> binding.
>>>> This is not Incubator policy, it is how the ASF works.
>>>> It is the same in Jakarta, for example, where any Jakarta  Committer
>>>> who
>>>> isn't on the PMC can vote, but only Jakarta PMC votes count.  For 
>>>> years
>>>> people didn't understand this, but please understand that Jakarta 
>>>> is the
>>>> source of many of the wrong and bad practices in ASF projects  that
>>>> didn't go
>>>> through either the HTTP Server project or the Incubator.
>>>>> the documentation link above is out of date.
>>>> It was never "in date".  It is wrong, regardless of date.
>>>>     --- Noel
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>> Craig Russell
>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System jdo
>>> 408 276-5638
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System
> 408 276-5638
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

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