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From Carl Trieloff <>
Subject Re: PPMC guidance on new committers
Date Wed, 30 May 2007 13:14:09 GMT

One more question on this topic as I have also seen differing views from 
different members of the Incubator PMC on:  "Who can and who can not 
send the account setup mail to root?"

Given each new committer vote will have 3 PMC votes, why does a mentor 
have to send the account setup to root? Why can't the mail to root just 
contain a link to the vote result with 3 PMC members on it from the 
general list?

Some PMC members have the view that any PPMC member should be able to 
send the account setup to root to learn the system, others say it has to 
be a mentor. Cliff has kindly taken care of most of these mail for us so 
far so this is more theoretical, however having clarity on this in the 
document would also be good as I have wondered about the reasoning 
behind this practice. If the mail to root has to be cc-ed to general 
list and PPMC  and has 3 PMC votes on it then it would seem to me that 
it could be send by anyone.


Craig L Russell wrote:
> Having seen this identical discussion at least half a dozen times, 
> I've committed changes to the guides/ppmc document removing the 
> distracting (P) from the discussion on new committers.
> The new text says
> Only votes cast by Incubator PMC members are binding. If the vote is 
> positive, and the contributor accepts the responsibility of a 
> committer for the project, the contributor formally becomes an Apache 
> committer. An Incubator PMC member should then follow the documented 
> procedures to complete the process, and CC both the Incubator PMC and 
> the PPMC when sending the necessary e-mails to root.
> I included the redundant "Incubator" in "Incubator PMC" simply to 
> reinforce Noel's comment that PMC means Incubator PMC.
> Craig
> On May 29, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Yoav Shapira wrote:
>>> I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed committer's
>>> contributions.
>> +1 != +0
>>> I always thought (and the documentation at
>>> says PPMC votes are
>>> binding.
>> It says (P), and the (P) clearly does not belong.  Notice that 
>> elsewhere it
>> properly says PPMC, with no (), and the places that are wrong were 
>> PMC to
>> which someone added (P).  Likewise "IPMC" should simply be PMC.  
>> There is
>> only one PMC: the Incubator PMC.
>> I don't know how to say this more clearly.  The PPMC is not a recognized
>> entity in the ASF Bylaws.  The PMC is the legal entity, and only PMC 
>> votes
>> count in any ASF project.  PPMC members should still vote, as can other
>> members of the community, but as a legal matter, only PMC votes are 
>> binding.
>> This is not Incubator policy, it is how the ASF works.
>> It is the same in Jakarta, for example, where any Jakarta Committer who
>> isn't on the PMC can vote, but only Jakarta PMC votes count.  For years
>> people didn't understand this, but please understand that Jakarta is the
>> source of many of the wrong and bad practices in ASF projects that 
>> didn't go
>> through either the HTTP Server project or the Incubator.
>>> the documentation link above is out of date.
>> It was never "in date".  It is wrong, regardless of date.
>>     --- Noel
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> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System
> 408 276-5638
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

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