On Sep 13, 2006, at 10:24 AM, robert burrell donkin wrote: > On 9/13/06, Alex Karasulu wrote: >> J Aaron Farr wrote: >> > On 9/13/06, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: >> >> On 9/12/06, Niclas Hedhman wrote: >> >> > As Leo pointed out, 'codebase quality' is not a graduation >> criteria. >> >> And >> >> > (hopefully) with Upayvira as the initial PMC Chair, I am not >> worried >> >> that the >> >> > PMC will overlook release requirements. If ASF Members feel >> that to >> >> be a >> >> > concern, they are both free to monitor and participate in the >> PMC work. >> >> >> >> My concern has nothing to do with 'codebase quality', but >> asking for a >> >> demonstration that the Felix community understands how to >> conduct a >> >> release that meets the ASF's criteria. >> >> >> >> If the community produces a release that is perfect on first shot, >> >> great - they're truly ready to graduate. If not, well, then, >> they'll >> >> learn from those mistakes and once they can produce a release that >> >> meets our criteria, then they'll be ready to graduate. >> >> >> >> Remember that a major task for a TLP is conducting a release. >> >> Therefore, it's reasonable for the Incubator PMC to ask for >> proof that >> >> they will execute that task successfully rather than taking it on >> >> blind faith. -- justin >> > >> > And I'm fine with that. I think it's a good idea for Incubating >> > projects to do at least one release before graduating. >> > >> > My concerns are: >> > >> > 1) The policy regarding podling releases has never been explicit >> and >> > always been conflicting > > the formal policy > (http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/ > Incubation_Policy.html#Releases) > isn't too bad (though i have tidied up the verbage surrounding it > recently). > > the sentiment towards releases has definitely changed as we've leant > more about the process. the PMC is now agnostic rather than > antagonistics. > >> Originally we (the mentors) and even Noel had told Felix not to worry >> about a release within the incubator: >> >> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-felix-dev/ >> 200604.mbox/%3cNBBBJGEAGJAKLIDBKJOPAEIPHMAC.noel@devtech.com%3e >> >> So both mentors and the Incubator PMC Chair told these folks that a >> release was not the primary objective for graduation. We explicitly >> told them *NOT* to worry about a release until after graduation. And >> graduation, we thought, was right around the corner. > > i agree that releases should not be a primary objective for > graduation. +1 > > IMO the question is not about performing a release (which is high > ceremony) but about knowing how to perform a release that complies > with ASF policy. +1 > > since we started checking releases in detail, it's become clear that > most projects struggle to create a compliant release at the first > attempt. nearly every first attempt checked turns out not be > compliant. i didn't expect this (since the rules are really pretty > simple). I only slightly beg to differ over Robert's characterization of the Apache release rules as "simple". Not. > >> > 2) Let's not (again) fall into the trap of changing the >> requirements >> > of graduation (or entry for that matter) on a vote thread >> > >> > So could we move these discussions to a new thread? >> >> Yeah good idea. Let's start off by discussing whether we make at >> least >> one incubator release a requirement for graduation? I think if we're >> going to hold it as a blocker before graduation we must make it a >> rule >> to be absolutely clear. > > i do not think that having made a release should be a requirement; +1 > > personally speaking, i would not support the gradudation any project > that has not demonstrated that they understand the apache releases > policy. doing this is much easier and quicker than creating a proper > release. just nominate a release manager and post a compliant example > to the people.apache.org webspace using the current code base so that > it can be checked. Having struggled through the release process outside the incubator, I can attest to the value that the incubator PMC brings to the process. I'd support changing the incubator process to encourage "what Robert said". That is, as a requirement (recommendation?) for graduation, have the podling nominate a release manager, have her build a candidate release that conforms to Apache policy, and post it for review. Craig > > - robert > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org > Craig Russell Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!