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From "Davanum Srinivas" <>
Subject Re: Various
Date Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:08:37 GMT
You clearly have no clue! Just as an example.

- Daniel Kulp from IONA is a Tuscany Committer. Which is a WS PMC
sponsored Incubator project
- Daniel Diephouse from Envoi working on XFire is a WS Committer as he
earned karma on the XmlSchema project.

FWW, Thanks for letting people see your  true colors. Geir has always
told me that your blog is a Literary device. It's just abundantly
clear that it is a farce.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves rather than stoop to your level.


On 6/23/06, Hani Suleiman <> wrote:
> I'm fairly astounded by the amount of email generated due to my name
> being on the initial committer list.
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat
> DefaultServlet rant was purely technical and did not degenerate into
> my usual personal insult comfort zone). I'm sorry that you can't take
> a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that yes, I did
> insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite expect, I fully
> stand by everything I said, and will still insist that Axis2 and
> Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written and have only
> gotten where they are today due to marketing forces, instead of
> technical merit. I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an
> Apache project merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at
> Apache love every project there? If that were the case, then the
> whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the
> outside might suspect.
> If Apache people feel that my technical abilities are not relevant,
> and that what should matter in whether I am allowed in as a cxfire
> committer is how willing I am to tow the party line, then I shouldn't
> be on that list. Apache would be the first organisation I've joined
> (or might have joined) that did not judge me on technical merit;
> quite an irony considering the whole meritocracy approach that Apache
> claims. This is, astoundingly, my first experience of being judged
> not on technical merit, but on random blathering that serves no
> particular purpose than ranting for ranting's sake.
> Just to set expectations, I will not stop saying things like 'Apache
> sucks', because I still do think that many of the processes and
> members have some terrible flaws. I am not aware of any Apache
> membership requirements that state that one's freedom of speech and
> expression are curtailed in any way; it is after all an alleged
> meritocracy, all that matters is how good the code I check in is, and
> how well I play within the team I'm a member of. If the cxfire team
> at any point feels I'm a liability rather than an asset, I would
> gladly leave. In fact I'd like to think that I'm self-aware enough to
> leave way before they feel the need to ask me to. I know plenty of
> Apache members who find many of the processes cumbersome and onerous,
> yet are still active participants; nobody seems to threaten them with
> being kicked out.
> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame that
> people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their
> projected revenues. It does feel like there's a small amount of
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire has
> many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2 priorities
> ahead of Apache ones.
> If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given
> field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is
> space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why
> xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant at
> all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.
> I always thought that despite all its flaws, Apache was a great
> ground for the 'let a thousand flowers bloom' approach, and I am
> frankly disturbed by how much say commercial interests seem to have
> in whether projects get accepted or not. In many ways this thread has
> left me with an even worse impression of Apache than I already had,
> which is, believe or not, a very sad thing.
> I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by technology,
> with no allegiance to commercial interests. It is driven by the
> concept of open source for the sake of open source; not open source
> that we can now build a company around and get funding and piss
> around with in order to make a living to avoid having a real job.
> Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the former! On that
> basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason for rejecting
> cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful project, it is
> widely deployed, it has an active developer base, and an interested
> and participatory community. So what if it happens to be technically
> superior to Axis2 (at least, in most people's opinions), is that a
> reason to reject it?
> I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my
> intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and
> undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised too
> pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane people
> who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I sincerely
> apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as an heartfelt
> plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than dismissing it as the
> ranting of a rather angry random java guy.
> Regards,
> Hani
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