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From Raphaël Luta <>
Subject Re: ajax proposal?
Date Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:34:01 GMT
Andrew Clark wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote: 
>>Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit 
>>(even with an ASF member in their team), I have a hard 
>>time believing this proposal is anything but a branding 
>>exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of 
>>Ajax toolkits. 

Thanks for your answer Andy. It sure helps flesh out your

> The Zimbra product owes much of its success to open- 
> source products, especially from Apache. The Kabuki 
> submission for incubation is an attempt to give back 
> to the community that's given us so much coupled with 
> the fact that we believe browser-based client coding 
> with Ajax is a natural fit with the web-centric theme 
> of Apache projects. 

Here we completely agree that Ajax certainly has a place
in the ASF.

> Our core business is collaboration and competing against 
> Exchange server; we aren't a tools or toolkit company. As 
> such, we are not associating the Zimbra brand with the 
> toolkit and aren't planning on making money from this
> effort. I hope that goes a little way towards easing
> some people's concerns regarding the submission.

I completely understand that you're not a toolkit company
however I can't understand why the AjaxTk is currently in
such a sore open-source state:
- the code dumps on the site are not functional out of the
- no source control access
- the sourceforge site is half configured and no links
  have been created to this tk (freshmeat, etc...)

I understand that you wouldn't want to setup your own public
dev infrastructure but using, codehaus, tigris or
whatever public infra wouldn't have been very onerous.

My concern here is if no resources have been dedicated
so far to really build the AjaxTk into an OSS project why
would that change once it is in incubation ?

It could be done now in sf or codehaus. That would trigger
all the zimbra internal changes that will have to happen
to make such a task work (like how to manage the internal
and external source repositories, commit access, bug
reporting, public design decisions, etc...). You will pick
an initial community then but most importantly work out
the internal issues that are bound to happen.

Proposing an to enter incubation from that situation would
be a no-brainer for me.

> One last note... the Zimbra marketing guy is well aware 
> that PR for incubated projects will not be allowed and 
> he's completely cool with that. Zimbra wants to do "the 
> right thing" and are willing to commit resources to try 
> to make that happen. However, if the Apache community is 
> still uneasy about the submission and denies its entry 
> to incubation, so be it. But I would love to see Apache 
> take a role in crafting the future of AJAX programming 
> (with the added personal benefit of being paid to work 
> on Apache technology again :). 

I think it's hard to speak for the "Apache community" ;)
In the end, we're all individuals and certainly don't agree
on everything.
I'm not completely comfortable with the current proposal
mostly because I am concerned by recent PR issues and I
got concerned by the amount of boilerplate text in
the different proposals (reading the current line on
meritocracy still makes me cringe).

Raphaël Luta -
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java

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