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From Davanum Srinivas <>
Subject RE: Recent Incubator proposals ( was Re: a few steps before approving a project)
Date Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:53:31 GMT

We did not want to shut the door on anyone bringing in some code,
hence we are going thru the incubator. Infravio is donating some code,
am hopeful committers from Sonic and IONA will do so as well (code
that they have copyright on). Am actually glad that we are taking the
highway and meeting these doubts, questions head on instead of landing
up in trouble later. If we are facing so much flak for doing all the
right things at the right time. I can't imagine what flak we'd get if
we had taken short-cuts and or circumvent processes/procedures. I am
still hopeful that we will continue to use incubation process and
personally am glad that we are doing this thru incubator.

Am hurt by the words "You turned this into a Web Services marketing
event" (Though i made it really clear multiple times that there was
only on press release that i was part of and that was vetted by the
prc@) But i will live and learn. Am still waiting for someone to point
out to an actual problem ("factually incorrect press releases"). Last
time i checked, people pay to put out press releases to make them look
good. ("seek to spin Synapse into something that makes other companies
look good.").

May be justin is right, we should ban anyone involved in any incubator
project from making press releases. As far as i know no one has caught
flak so far derby had press releases, beehive had them, stdcxx had
them...But hey you picked us to be the scape goat and use it as an
excuse for introducing a "NO PRESS RELEASES" policy. That's fine. Just
make it an ACTUAL policy for incubation process and that way we don't
have to debate who said what and when. IF that's not what you want,
then please say what you want in the new policy. ("Press releases
should go thru prc@"? yep, we did that as i said multiple times).

If you don't want companies to talk about their involvement in Apache
projects, then make that a policy and ban ALL press releases (OR) make
sure there are no press releases get out w/o prc approval. While we
are at it, we should probably have our say on contests like this as
well ( Have you read the stdcxx
press release? (

Why is it just us catching the flak?

-- dims

On 9/1/05, Roy T. Fielding <> wrote:
> I don't see what this has to do with Synapse, but whatever ...
> > IF we even seem to appear to sneak something by AM sure we will get an
> > earful BUT in this case we courted IONA and got their support and
> > showed that we can build diversity that spans OW and Apache. For this
> > what do we get, brick bats again.
> No, actually, nobody has complained about IONA.  People are complaining
> that the mentors are doing a crappy job of controlling the other
> commercial organizations who seek to spin Synapse into something that
> makes other companies look good.
> > Look we have no code, some code from Infravio is using Axis 1.X and
> > the porposal makes it clear that it is only for "consultation" and not
> > a seeding codebase. So we are practically starting from scratch. No
> > one even understands that.
> Then you shouldn't have any seed code and you should just create
> a directory and start working.  You created this mess yourselves
> by turning it into a Web Services marketing event.
> > Am getting demoralized now because of all this brouhaha over nothing.
> > Guess, we don't really mean to be open. Suddenly even building
> > businesses around Open Source seems to be a bad idea given the
> > reactions for just one DAMN PROPOSAL. I guess given all the acrimony
> > we should stop introducing any projects in Apache. Let's just rot and
> > die.
> Look, I am going to explain this as roughly as possible.  Apache
> exists now, today, because people like ME and Randy and Jim and
> Brian (and now Greg and Justin and Sam and ...) have forcibly
> prevented various companies from abusing their participation in
> OUR projects through factually incorrect press releases. It is
> YOUR responsibility to do that with projects that YOU agree to
> mentor, even if it means publicly humiliating the idiots in PR
> when they make mistakes.
> This will be a far harder task in the Web Services area (filled
> with companies who exist solely on the basis of press releases and
> nothing else) than it was for the original Web projects.  You are
> swimming in a sewer of bad companies trying to do good.  It should
> not be surprising that we need to hose the project down before it
> can join Apache.  We need to do that to protect both Apache and
> the new project.  It only takes ONE bad project to undue all of
> the gains we have made within the ASF.  It is the fact that we
> take such care with new projects that differentiates Apache from
> other sites that merely host code.
> ....Roy
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Davanum Srinivas : - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform

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