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From Ceki Gülcü <>
Subject Incubator representative?
Date Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:39:22 GMT

Although many ASF members are  represented in the incubator, it is not
representative of the ASF because it is more coercive than the rest of
the foundation. Some  of the coercion is unavoidable,  e.g. IP issues,
some  of it mildly  irritating, e.g.  forrest, and  then there  is the
community requirement.

By insisting  heavily on  community building and  rigid rules  like 3+
committers, the ASF may be undermining  the very thing it is trying to
cultivate.   Developers are  drawn  to  the ASF  in  order to  develop
software in a friendly environment  and to some extent to benefit from
the ASF brand.  If the friendly environment is diluted by coercion and
excessive bureaucracy, developers may  feel prisoner in something they
don't understand. With his sense  of liberty injured, the developer is
left only with  one advantage, the Apache brand.   Apache may still be
deemed  an  attractive proposal,  but  not  as  attractive as  thought

The point I am trying to make  is that you can't make someone like ice
cream. Most people love it but if you force it on them, they'll end up
being repulsed by it.

At 04:29 PM 3/16/2005, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Apache is indeed an interesting place, although the incubator is not
> > necessarily representative of the whole.
>What happens in the Incubator informs and seeds the next generation of ASF
>communities.  This suggests to me that every active ASF Member, Officer and
>Director should be involved in the Incubator.  As you may have noticed from
>the discussion on healthy communities, the latter group is strongly
>So I'd actually say that the Incubator is more representative of the whole,
>and is the place where discussion of normative behavior occurs, compared to
>separately evolved processes.
>         --- Noel
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Ceki Gülcü

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