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From Henri Yandell <>
Subject Re: Incubator representative?
Date Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:14:29 GMT
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:39:22 +0100, Ceki Gülcü <> wrote:
> Although many ASF members are  represented in the incubator, it is not
> representative of the ASF because it is more coercive than the rest of
> the foundation. Some  of the coercion is unavoidable,  e.g. IP issues,
> some  of it mildly  irritating, e.g.  forrest, and  then there  is the
> community requirement.

Not sure I understand this. Only one here that would seem to cause a
problem would be the forrest bit. If incubating a project, I would
definitely want to minimize the amount of time spent having to do
forrest things.

I assume the project's website itself does not need to be in Forrest,
just their status page. Roller will be interesting as their site runs
on Roller :)

> By insisting  heavily on  community building and  rigid rules  like 3+
> committers, the ASF may be undermining  the very thing it is trying to
> cultivate.   Developers are  drawn  to  the ASF  in  order to  develop

I think it goes:

1 person = despot
2 people = unresolvable argument
3 people = community

We need 3 people so that consensus may be reached when there is disagreement. 

> software in a friendly environment  and to some extent to benefit from
> the ASF brand.  If the friendly environment is diluted by coercion and
> excessive bureaucracy, developers may  feel prisoner in something they

This is definitely a meme that is out there, Apache = bureaucracy. We
need to show that a) the bureacracy is minimal, and b) it creates
communities that live on when their original leader departs.

> don't understand. With his sense  of liberty injured, the developer is
> left only with  one advantage, the Apache brand.   Apache may still be
> deemed  an  attractive proposal,  but  not  as  attractive as  thought
> initially.

And if the developer were to then join, only coming for the Apache
brand, I think we would not want to have them here.

Exploring Jakarta's quieter side, I've found views on the subproject
management that had definitely had no exposure to the Apache way. One
committer spoke of another committer as being their Apache contact,
while another committer apologised for his inability to work on the
codebase anymore and said he would be adding new committers to replace
him soon.

This shows the need for the Incubator, and then the next step just
becomes what the Incubator should teach.

> The point I am trying to make  is that you can't make someone like ice
> cream. Most people love it but if you force it on them, they'll end up
> being repulsed by it.

Yep. We need to have people view it as a toothbrush analogy and not
ice cream. We enforce cleaning your teeth upon the incubatees because
it is good for them, and explain why.


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