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From Berin Lautenbach <>
Subject Re: [RESULT][VOTE] PPMCs for Incubating Projects
Date Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:24:45 GMT
Cancel question about wiki - should have looked first.

Apologies - and a very Merry Christmas!


Berin Lautenbach wrote:

> Nicola,
> I only have one overall thought (and you're going to think it remarkable 
> picky, especially at this late stage :>).  As an aside - is this on the 
> wiki somewhere where we can do a bit of wordsmithing (if you don't 
> object at such a late date :<.  Am also happy to play around once it is 
> on the site if you would prefer.)
> Onto the overall thought - do they have to be "Practice" PMCs?  To me it 
> sounds very patronsing, although that might just be a culture thing.
> On a more serious note however, to me PPMCs are more than practice - 
> they are the real thing, it's just the Incubator PMC is double checking 
> everything going on.  By calling them "practice", we are implicitly 
> giving a message that what they are doing is not real.
> Is there a better word?  "Provisional", "Preliminary" or some such?
> Again - this is a very late stage.  Feel free to ignore, as I should 
> have made this comment a long time ago.
> Cheers,
>     Berin
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> Apart from the general agreement on PPMCs, for this particular vote 
>> instance there has been a +1 from me, one from Noel, on with changes 
>> from Aaron and a positive comment from Leo.
>> Thus, and also given the rule we have tacitly agreed upon on the pmc 
>> list that the votes of this PMC are considered valid of there are not 
>> objections regardless the number of votes, I consider this vote passed.
>> Below is what I think is a sufficient summary of what PPMCs are. I'll 
>> be fixing the site with this info soon. If there are still things to 
>> change-fix, feel free to say so, they won't invalidate this vote but 
>> are just fixes that can be done as normal.
>> = PPMCs =
>> == Description ==
>> To make Incubating project learn to govern themselves and govern 
>> themselves at the same time, each project has a PPMC (a place where to 
>> practice having a PMC) that works similarly to a PMC but reports to 
>> the Incubator PMC instead of the board.
> The is a construct
>> == Members of the PPMC ==
>>  * project developers-committers
>>  * landing PMC members that want to help (if there is a landing PPMC)
>>  * Incubator PMC members that want to help
>> The Mentors are the only ones /required/ to participate on the -dev 
>> list. The other Incubator members would have to "catch up" to the 
>> extent that PPMC discussion requires external context.
>> Incubator PMC members not engaged in active development or discussion 
>> on a project are still able to eventually intervene in quality of 
>> observers. They should refrain from voting on project decisions unless 
>> really necessary, thus acting as vetoers of last resort.
>> == Reporting the the main Incubator PMC ==
>> Development and discussions go on the dev lists, where the Mentors are 
>> the ones doing active oversight.
>> The status updates are posted to, prior 
>> ACK from any Incubator PMC member.
>> == FAQ ==
>> Joe Developer: "So, how does this 'incubation' thing work then?"
>> Website: "Well, we want to do our best to make new projects feel
>> welcome at the ASF, and we want the ASF to feel comfortable bringing
>> the new project under its hood. This requires a get-to-know-the-ropes
>> period, which we call incubation. We establish something dubbed a
>> PPMC, which is a mailing list where a project's core group learns how
>> to deal with all those 'serious' intricacies that come with being a part
>> of the ASF, like quarterly reports, voting in committers, STATUS
>> file management, voting procedures, etc etc.
>> Also, we'll take a good look at any IP/licensing/copyright/trademark
>> issues that may exist during the incubation process. As soon as it is
>> clear that a project has truely captured the ASF spirit and all legal
>> issues are sorted out, the project leaves incubation and lives on on
>> its own."
>> Joe Developer: "So, what is this PPMC thing?"
>> Website: "A mailing list where the project's core group learns what
>> it means to be part of the ASF. To help them do that, there's a group
>> of ASF people called the Incubator PMC. Also, there will often be
>> other interested ASF members to help out and answer questions."
>> Joe PPMC Member: "So how do I...?"
>> Website: "We don't have clean answers to most of those questions
>> (yet). Just post an e-mail about the question/issue/problem, and we'll
>> figure things out together."
>> Joe PPMC Member: "I don't have any more questions!"
>> Website: "Well, good! Go on then, out of the womb, go and
>> manage things on your own. By the way, would you be interested
>> in a position on the Incubator PMC to help out new projects?"
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