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From Berin Lautenbach <>
Subject Re: [RESULT][VOTE] PPMCs for Incubating Projects
Date Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:23:40 GMT

I only have one overall thought (and you're going to think it remarkable 
picky, especially at this late stage :>).  As an aside - is this on the 
wiki somewhere where we can do a bit of wordsmithing (if you don't 
object at such a late date :<.  Am also happy to play around once it is 
on the site if you would prefer.)

Onto the overall thought - do they have to be "Practice" PMCs?  To me it 
sounds very patronsing, although that might just be a culture thing.

On a more serious note however, to me PPMCs are more than practice - 
they are the real thing, it's just the Incubator PMC is double checking 
everything going on.  By calling them "practice", we are implicitly 
giving a message that what they are doing is not real.

Is there a better word?  "Provisional", "Preliminary" or some such?

Again - this is a very late stage.  Feel free to ignore, as I should 
have made this comment a long time ago.


Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> Apart from the general agreement on PPMCs, for this particular vote 
> instance there has been a +1 from me, one from Noel, on with changes 
> from Aaron and a positive comment from Leo.
> Thus, and also given the rule we have tacitly agreed upon on the pmc 
> list that the votes of this PMC are considered valid of there are not 
> objections regardless the number of votes, I consider this vote passed.
> Below is what I think is a sufficient summary of what PPMCs are. I'll be 
> fixing the site with this info soon. If there are still things to 
> change-fix, feel free to say so, they won't invalidate this vote but are 
> just fixes that can be done as normal.
> = PPMCs =
> == Description ==
> To make Incubating project learn to govern themselves and govern 
> themselves at the same time, each project has a PPMC (a place where to 
> practice having a PMC) that works similarly to a PMC but reports to the 
> Incubator PMC instead of the board.

The is a construct

> == Members of the PPMC ==
>  * project developers-committers
>  * landing PMC members that want to help (if there is a landing PPMC)
>  * Incubator PMC members that want to help
> The Mentors are the only ones /required/ to participate on the -dev 
> list. The other Incubator members would have to "catch up" to the extent 
> that PPMC discussion requires external context.
> Incubator PMC members not engaged in active development or discussion on 
> a project are still able to eventually intervene in quality of 
> observers. They should refrain from voting on project decisions unless 
> really necessary, thus acting as vetoers of last resort.
> == Reporting the the main Incubator PMC ==
> Development and discussions go on the dev lists, where the Mentors are 
> the ones doing active oversight.
> The status updates are posted to, prior ACK 
> from any Incubator PMC member.
> == FAQ ==
> Joe Developer: "So, how does this 'incubation' thing work then?"
> Website: "Well, we want to do our best to make new projects feel
> welcome at the ASF, and we want the ASF to feel comfortable bringing
> the new project under its hood. This requires a get-to-know-the-ropes
> period, which we call incubation. We establish something dubbed a
> PPMC, which is a mailing list where a project's core group learns how
> to deal with all those 'serious' intricacies that come with being a part
> of the ASF, like quarterly reports, voting in committers, STATUS
> file management, voting procedures, etc etc.
> Also, we'll take a good look at any IP/licensing/copyright/trademark
> issues that may exist during the incubation process. As soon as it is
> clear that a project has truely captured the ASF spirit and all legal
> issues are sorted out, the project leaves incubation and lives on on
> its own."
> Joe Developer: "So, what is this PPMC thing?"
> Website: "A mailing list where the project's core group learns what
> it means to be part of the ASF. To help them do that, there's a group
> of ASF people called the Incubator PMC. Also, there will often be
> other interested ASF members to help out and answer questions."
> Joe PPMC Member: "So how do I...?"
> Website: "We don't have clean answers to most of those questions
> (yet). Just post an e-mail about the question/issue/problem, and we'll
> figure things out together."
> Joe PPMC Member: "I don't have any more questions!"
> Website: "Well, good! Go on then, out of the womb, go and
> manage things on your own. By the way, would you be interested
> in a position on the Incubator PMC to help out new projects?"

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