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From Nicola Ken Barozzi <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] PPMCs for Incubating Projects
Date Tue, 16 Dec 2003 07:49:10 GMT

Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 02:47:43PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>A PMC policy to be determined is whether the PPMC mailing list is optional
>>for PMC members.  The one mailing list created to date (geronimo-ppmc) is
>>opt-in, although I did pre-subscribe you (along with myself, Geir and
> What do you mean by this? Are you asking, for example, if Incubator PMC
> members should be forced to join all * lists?
> Or, are you asking, for example, if Geronimo PMC members should be forced
> to join their own list?
> If it is the first, I completely disagree. The ASF is a volunteer
> organization. If someone wishes to help mentor a project under Incubation,
> then they should simply join the ppmc list and participate.

This is not exactly how it should work.

What happens ATM: if a problem has to be solved on the private PMC list, 
we have to use

This is a *big* problem, as the future PMCers of the project in question 
cannot participate in the discussion. I think you can remember the "pass 
it on" that has been done by Mentors between the pmc and the developers.

If we make all developers come on the PMC list it may become at times a 
really confusing thing, and all projects will know of all others. 
Besides, the project is still not formed, and so the should not be on a 
real PMC. Furthermore, we know that more eyes are there, the better it is.

If we partition the incubator PMC list in many PPMC lists, we have the 
*same* workload we had before, but are able to make developers 
participate, and in practice we may even have to do less work, as we 
will pass to become observers.

For example, it's no secret that the incubator PMC has been discussing 
some action items about Geronimo on the private pmc list. If we already 
had a geronimo-ppmc, the discussion would have simply be done there, but 
with the important participation of geronimo developers.

Note that this is *not* generic mentoring, but the same identical issue 
solving that we did till now, only that we get more help and get away 
with useless indirections.

Finally, the private pmc list should be a last resort mechanism, so we 
will not be doing normal project mentoring there.

I think that the below proposal explains the PPMC in sufficient detail:

Nicola Ken Barozzi         
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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