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From Nicola Ken Barozzi <>
Subject Re: [RT] Incubator Reorg
Date Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:39:32 GMT
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> Lenya will become a sub-project of Cocoon. Or better, a sub-codebase 
>> of the same project. It's fair to assume that once incubation is 
>> finished, the Lenya codebase will go to the Cocoon PMC and that all 
>> Lenya committers will go in the Cocoon PMC.
>> Now, IIUC you suggest that in this case we don't need a PPMC.
>> Problem: the project is under the Incubator PMC that has to keep 
>> oversight. How can it do so effectively without being on the "Lenya" PMC?
> I think that you are missing a wonderful opportunity to delegate to, and 
> hold accountable, the sponsoring PMC.  Ultimately, the goal is that they 
> should be the ones held accountable, no?
> This goes back to the discussion of the incubator PMC being the vetoer 
> of last resort as opposed to being the decision makers.

Call me stupid, but I still don't get this.
(not that I don't like where you are heading, as I really would like the 
Cocoon PMC take oversight as they are eager to, but because I still 
cannot easily see in which way it may ultimately work).

A project enters the Incubator. It's part of the Incubator. It's a 
codebase and a set of developers in the Incubator.

But you say that the developers are on another PMC list who is to be 
held accountable... then the project is not under the Incubator, as the 
board holds the Incubator accountable for projects in incubation, no?

Held accountable... how, and by whom?

How can the Incubator PMC veto something that is not even known, as 
decisions are taken by the Sponsoring PMC?

For example, committers must be voted in by a PMC. The project is in the 
Incubator. Does it make sense/is it legal for committers that are under 
the Incubator PMC oversight to be voted by another PMC?

>> Second problem: since the Project is not accepted in Apache, is it 
>> good to add Lenya developers to the Cocoon PMC?
> If they are truly part of the Cocoon community, then sure.  However, if 
> the intent is to form a second community and "hide" it under the Cocoon 
> umbrella, then no.

I mean add them *before* the project exits incubation. Do you think that 
adding them to that PMC before successfully incubation is ok?

>> So, it would seem that we have two solutions:
>> 1 - add Lenya developers and Incubator members to the Cocoon PMC list,
>>     but not the PMC
> I don't object to that, but I don't see that as necessary.

The "add Lenya committers" part or the "add Incubator members" part?
And why?

>> 2 - make a PPMC consisting of all the above
> If, and only if, one anticipated Lenya becoming a separate community and 
> PMC, thus:
>> 3 - have Lenya become an indipendent project, and not stay under Cocoon
> In theory, that would be OK with me.  In practice, we need to strike a 
> balance between the board having to manage several hundred projects 
> (something we are far from having to concern outselfs from now), and 
> projects with several hundred PMC members (a potential real problem for 
> Jakarta).
> I personally don't see evidence that Cocoon is exibiting any symptoms of 
> the latter problem, so I have no problem with Cocoon sponsoring the 
> adoption of Lenya.  Furthermore, I have full confidence that the Cocoon 
> PMC would be the first to recognize such a problem if it were ever to 
> become an issue in the future, and would take actions to correct it 
> (such as spinning off Lenya to a separate project).

I agree on this last point.

What still bugs me is how to do oversight of projects under other projects.

Nicola Ken Barozzi         
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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