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From Sam Ruby <>
Subject Re: [RT] Incubator Reorg
Date Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:01:12 GMT
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> I maintain that if I were made an active committer in Maven by virtue 
>> of this hypothetical donation (and therefore eligable to become a 
>> member of the Maven PMC, perhaps immediately or perhaps after a few 
>> month delay), that no PPMC would be neccessary or appropriate.
> I have thought of this issue too, and it's bugging me.
> Let's leave Geronimo aside for the moment and look at Lenya.

Who mentioned Geronimo?  :-)

I *DEFINITELY* believe that Geronimo needs a PPMC.

> Lenya will become a sub-project of Cocoon. Or better, a sub-codebase of 
> the same project. It's fair to assume that once incubation is finished, 
> the Lenya codebase will go to the Cocoon PMC and that all Lenya 
> committers will go in the Cocoon PMC.
> Now, IIUC you suggest that in this case we don't need a PPMC.
> Problem: the project is under the Incubator PMC that has to keep 
> oversight. How can it do so effectively without being on the "Lenya" PMC?

I think that you are missing a wonderful opportunity to delegate to, and 
hold accountable, the sponsoring PMC.  Ultimately, the goal is that they 
should be the ones held accountable, no?

This goes back to the discussion of the incubator PMC being the vetoer 
of last resort as opposed to being the decision makers.

> Second problem: since the Project is not accepted in Apache, is it good 
> to add Lenya developers to the Cocoon PMC?

If they are truly part of the Cocoon community, then sure.  However, if 
the intent is to form a second community and "hide" it under the Cocoon 
umbrella, then no.

> So, it would seem that we have two solutions:
> 1 - add Lenya developers and Incubator members to the Cocoon PMC list,
>     but not the PMC

I don't object to that, but I don't see that as necessary.

> 2 - make a PPMC consisting of all the above

If, and only if, one anticipated Lenya becoming a separate community and 
PMC, thus:

> 3 - have Lenya become an indipendent project, and not stay under Cocoon

In theory, that would be OK with me.  In practice, we need to strike a 
balance between the board having to manage several hundred projects 
(something we are far from having to concern outselfs from now), and 
projects with several hundred PMC members (a potential real problem for 

I personally don't see evidence that Cocoon is exibiting any symptoms of 
the latter problem, so I have no problem with Cocoon sponsoring the 
adoption of Lenya.  Furthermore, I have full confidence that the Cocoon 
PMC would be the first to recognize such a problem if it were ever to 
become an issue in the future, and would take actions to correct it 
(such as spinning off Lenya to a separate project).

- Sam Ruby

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