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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project
Date Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:24:25 GMT
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:02, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything done.
> > > Is there a fee for this troll?
> > See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple.
> By the same logic, neither does anything that wasn't born fully functional
> and flawless.  After all, nothing changes.

Left field but I'll bite: nothing is born flawless and perfect it is a
matter of adaptation. When the ASF was born it was highly adaptable
which is why it has done so well.

> > Apache just isn't going to survive if the Incubator is the model
> > for operation.
> > The network of trust between members and the common sense of
> > members is all we need.
> Actually, if you would open your eyes and look around, that is what is
> happening with the Incubator.
> Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, my
> idea is that we would use (with or without
> projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
> destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.  

If this is a sort of fast track for projects we know to be fine by
virtue of existing connections with Apache then that would definitely be

> We need to
> complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP, and vote on it.  So you
> tell me, Jason, where is this all-consuming hinderance of which you speak?

o confusing and unnavigable website

o a website that seems to change more often than not

o Rodney not being able to find useful information regarding the  
processes here when trying to figure out what to do with Axion.

o Rodney not really getting much feedback while people on the list are
talking about podlings and mentors and shepherds and other use jargon.

o basically a completely unclear path and when people ask for help it
often goes unanswered. Lots of people are answering Rodney today because
I'm in everyone's face.

o endless discussions while nothing much has really been decided this
thing has been here for how long? 6 months, a year and look what the sum
total is on the site. It's nuts.

> The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

Great, now why wasn't some common sense like that employed when this
whole show started? Because the tendency leans toward the voluminous and


Jason van Zyl

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society

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