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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: projects incubated by the incubator PMC
Date Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:22:36 GMT
On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 20:43, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> > I also don't think it's really that much work on the behalf of a 
> > project
> > trying to enter Apache to do a little leg work in resolving that before
> > entering.
> I didn't say they shouldn't try -- I said it wasn't necessary.
> As far as I am concerned, no existing project should be allowed
> to create autonomous subprojects.  That means code which is not
> destined for an existing project needs a temporary home until such
> a time when the board feels it is ready to be autonomous.  Hence,
> incubator was created to be a halfway house in addition to documenting
> the transition of IP.
> > Clearly there should be some interest within Apache for the code to be
> > accepted. Either at the board level where things like Geronimo and Eve
> > have been discussed where upon successful incubation the project moves
> > to its designated TLP location. The other case being where some contact
> > has been made with one of the TLPs to accept the code upon successful
> > incubation.
> It already requires participation of a member and a vote within the
> incubator PMC, which is supposed to consist of all of the Apache members
> who are interested in new project incubation.  The board tries to avoid
> making technical decisions on behalf of the members.
> > I would propose those documents be changed to state that what is
> > outlined above is a prerequisite for entry into the incubator.
> -1.  

So you can veto a vote I would propose to members I feel is in the best
interest of preserving the integrity of the software here. Why can't the
members decide? I find it ridiculous that a body of code can land here
with absolutely no direction.

I'll I'm asking for is that projects that arrive here state there intent
which includes where they want to live in the Apache landscape. Is that

In the past when the incubator didn't exist when new bodies of code came
in they became entities like, or fell
under one of those TLPs. Why should it be any different now? The only
thing the incubator should do is the IP verification and "community"

> If the TLPs were supposed to be divisions of technology then
> Maven would not be a TLP.  

How does this relate at all to the discussion? But if the Incubator was
around when Maven split out of Turbine we would have asked for TLP and
it would have been clear. Sorry, but I fail to see the point you're
trying to raise using Maven as an example.

> The only thing that distinguishes a TLP
> from a piece of code adrift in cyberspace is that there exists a set
> of people capable of governing themselves while collaborating on
> development of that code.  Once that point is reached, the project
> should be released from whatever bounds it happens to be within.

What does that mean exactly? That Apache shall simply become a directory
of projects whereby the only requirement is successful incubation? If so
I think that definitely requires a vote because as a member that's not
what I see Apache being.

> Your suggestion would require the board to do what it has already
> assigned to the incubator, which the board specifically decided to
> delegate in order to get more members interested in the process.

My suggestion is simply to make it requisite that an incoming project
delcare a destination. How does that alter the roles anyone is playing
in the incubator as far as involvement and oversight.

Additionally, as pointed out by Rodney, what's documented is more akin
to what I'm saying than what you're saying if I read you correctly
vis-a-vis the free wheeling directory of projects.

> ....Roy
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Jason van Zyl

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society

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